It has been a while since this most commented of posts has received much traffic. When I was read Psalm 53:1 in today’s scripture reading, I thought it might be time for a revisit…
The fool says in his heart, “There is no God.” Psalm 53:1
Read: Numbers 14:1 – 15:16, Mark 14:53-72, Psalm 53:1-6, Proverbs 11:4
To The Doubting Christian – If you would be a real seeker after truth, it is necessary that at least once in your life you doubt, as far as possible, all things. – Rene’ Descartes Doubt isn’t the opposite of faith, it is an element of faith. – Paul Tillich
To The Agnostic – Question with boldness even the existence of God; because, if there be one, He must more approve of the homage of reason, than that of blind-folded fear. – Thomas Jefferson
The Militant Atheist – Man is manifestly not the measure of all things. This universe is shot through with mystery. The very fact of its being, and of our own, is a mystery absolute, and the only miracle worthy of the name. – Sam Harris
Relate:
To The Doubting Christian – I get you. I’ve been there. I think the only people who have not had doubts are either liars or fools. Even now I believe God is calling me out to take a step of faith that I just cannot take. I have bills to pay, and if I were to obey, where would the money come from. But that’s a small doubt, that’s not where you’re at. It’s not where I’ve been. When my sister died with her newborn daughter at 24, when my cousin had a fatal heart attack at the same age, when my dad died after bumping his head playing basketball… That brought some real doubts. Doubts if God was real and, if He was, whether He was good. I’ve known moments in my life where blind faith just would not cut it. And I’ve known how difficult it was to express these doubts to my pastor, to my church, to my friends. I’ve been there.
To The Agnostic – I can sympathize with your doubt. We have a cosmic horizon of about 46 billion light years in every direction. This is only a small fraction of the real universe and anything beyond it is, and always be impossibly beyond our understanding. Even within that sphere we know next to nothing about so much of it. 95%, dark matter and dark energy, are at this time simply beyond our understanding. Even on this one small ball rotating one small sun in one small galaxy, there is still so much more for us to discover. There is simply so much more that we simply do not know. How dare we have the audacity to claim to know God?
To The Militant Atheist – That claim to know God has done so much damage. Because I claim to know, and he claims to know a different God. So we fight it out. The institutionalization of religion has done so much damage throughout time. It has been the cause of so many wars, and so much oppression. How can a good God exist if this is how His followers are gonna act?
React:
To The Militant Atheist – It is in the nature of most of humanity to want to live for something greater than themselves. It is in our nature to be followers. Evil men have used religion to lead many down evil paths. But this is the fault of evil men, not of God. Evil men have led others down evil paths without God just as easily. Just look at Stalin. Look at Pol Pot. Science and humanism are not barriers to oppression. They never have been and never will be. Eradicating this “evil” will not end tyranny. All it will do is eliminate one of the greatest motivators for doing good.
To The Agnostic – We will never be fully sure of anything. There will never be a subject about which we have complete knowledge, but that doesn’t stop us from acting. You sit down assuming the chair will be there. Every now and then you might miss, or some idiot pulls it away, but does that stop you from sitting in the future? Will you ever be standing on the fear that you might fall? Why not put God to the same test? Albert Camus wrote, “I would rather live my life as if there is a God and die to find out there isn’t, and live my life as if there isn’t and die to find out there is.”
To The Christian Doubter – As a lover of, and leader in the Church, I apologize for the environment that has so often been created that discourages doubt. I apologize on behalf of everyone who has pretended that they have it all together when they don’t. I hope you won’t be that same person to someone else who might be having doubts. I would encourage you to express those doubts to a fellow believer. If you have tried and been silenced or given the old, “I’ll pray for you”, know that my (metaphorical) door is open. I promise a judgment free dialogue if you would email me at bj@tworiversassembly.com Respond:
To The Militant Atheist – I don’t want to argue with you but I would love to dialogue. Please respond here or, if you would rather, email me at bj@tworiversassembly.com Greater minds than ours have gone back and forth on the existence of God. What I am more curious in knowing is why you believe that religion must be eradicated. Why have you chosen a fundamentalist approach to your atheist beliefs?
To The Agnostic – Doubting is good. I’m glad you have chosen to withhold judgment on the existence of God until you have more information one way or the other. Some doubts will never be answered and will require a leap of faith. Others, however, might be walked through. I would love to hear from you in comments here or at bj@tworiversassembly.com. Share your doubts. I’ll share a few of my own. Perhaps together we might walk towards a greater understanding.
To The Christian Doubter –
THE RIVER WALK 
While this is not really aimed at me I felt the need to say something. I am a Pagan or Wiccan and have been for a great many years. I left the title of doubting Christian longer then I could say. While I speak for myself only there might be a few who understand how I feel or what I mean. For many Christianity has brought a sense of peace into their hearts and souls. It has given them a purpose and much more. It is the same for me though we defer on the one God belief. There are things I believe that are similiar. Sometimes if you start off with what is similiar what’s left doesn’t seem a huge mountain as much. I enjoy reading what you write each day even if it is not my religion and never will be again. There is truth, honesty, and hope in all paths even if not everyone agrees. It is the darkness and fear that threatens much of what good each of us does in this life. Some call it Satan. Some call it something else or have no name at all. People try to convince others that their way is best or what they should walk down. Sometimes it is the thing that drives some further away. Treating people like people regardless of religious beliefs may be the one thing that brings them closer to what you so heart warmingly feel in your heart and soul.
I am honored that you would read and respond even if we might not always agree. Be Blessed.
That reply to the above is how everyone should feel BJ.
Eradicating evil will not end tyranny. All it will do is eliminate one of the greatest motivators for doing good. >>> WOW!
Hi I thought that I would respond to your blog.
I had a look at your definitions and I think that as many Christians do younhave the wrong concept of an atheist.
What I think you have here is not a militant atheist but a definition of an anti-theist. Most atheists do not believe in a god because they do not have proof, and we could easily believe if a god popped into existence and it produced some miracles that where provable! However, they would also have to be assured that this was not just some amazingly advanced alien either! Proof is the thing not faith, it is tangible, testable evidence. Just think of the people you know, and this situation on a very very basic level. Say you found this new food and you thought it was fantastic, some you know would grab a big spoonful on your word and gobbled it up, they have faith in you, but some others you know have a long look, smell it, touch it, take a little sip, take another, swish it around their mouth and the if they make the decision that it is ok they will eat it! However, again they will hold back complete judgement until they either finish or eat it again another time. They do not have faith in your judgement. They have to make decisions based on evidence and testing!
Anti-theist
http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=Anti-theist
1. Anti-theist
A person who holds the view that organized religion when considered throughout the centuries has been a destructive force in society, wrongly believed is that all are also agnostics or atheists, but a great number of faithful theists also see organized religion as harmful to society and choose to follow their own path to god.
when considering the crusades, September the 11th, the holocaust and the Spanish inquisition the anti-theist concluded that religion had caused great harm to society.
Atheist
http://www.infidels.org/library/modern/mathew/sn-definitions.html
Martin goes on to cite sveral other well-known nontheists in history who used or implied this definition of “atheism,” including Baron d’Holbach (1770), Richard Carlile (1826), Charles Southwell (1842), Charles Bradlaugh (1876), and Anne Besant (1877).
The average theologian (there are exceptions, of course) uses “atheist” to mean a person who denies the existence of a God. Even an atheist would agree that some atheists (a small minority) would fit this definition. However, most atheists would stongly dispute the adequacy of this definition. Rather, they would hold that an atheist is a person without a belief in God. The distiniction is small but important. Denying something means that you have knowledge of what it is that you are being asked to affirm, but that you have rejected that particular concept. To be without a belief in God merely means that yhe term “god” has no importance, or possibly no meaning, to you. Belief in God is not a factor in your life. Surely this is quite different from denying the existence of God. Atheism is not a belief as such. It is the lack of belief.
When we examine the components of the word “atheism,” we can see this distinction more clearly. The word is made up of “a-” and “-theism.” Theism, we will all agree, is a belief in a God or gods. The prefix “a-” can mean “not” (or “no”) or “without.” If it means “not,” then we have as an atheist someone who is not a theist (i.e., someone who does not have a belief in a God or gods). If it means “without,” then an atheist is someone without theism, or without a belief in God.
[Gordon Stein (Ed.), An Anthology of Atheism and Rationalism, p. 3.
Prometheus, 1980.]
Hope you find it interesting
Ranger Ginger
Thank you for your well thought out and reasoned reply. You are using the word atheist as I use agnostic. The phrase militant atheist is not one of my own making. It has been used through history: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/League_of_Militant_Atheists and is still in use today: http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=Militant%20Atheist
Semantics aside, I will respond more fully in time. Right now I just have a few plates in the air I must keep spinning.
I would give you a further clarification on the term agnostic. What Ranger describes is an “agnostic atheist” which is where I think the majority of atheists probably fall including myself. But don’t think that agnosticism implies uncertainty.
An anti-theist will say “there is no god.” An agnostic will generally not make this statement, but will usually say “we can’t know if there is a god”. Between this statement and “I don’t know if god exists” is a world of difference. For instance, I would say “I don’t know if god exists but I feel certain the Christian God doesn’t exist, at least as he is described in the Bible.” For me this position is honest and logically consistent, despite what articles like the one linked by Mr. Hartness imply.
I would point you to this blog: http://alise-write.com/category/the-christian-guide-to-atheists/. If you want to have a dialogue with non-believers, it helps to first understand them and this is a wonderful guide.
Just a quick point on the references you have used for the definition that explain your categories. Firstl, the term militant atheist is in regard to an obscure Russian atheist movement from the time of the revolution, I suppose you could say they are much like that Westboro sect. Secondly, the urban dictionary is a place regarding ‘pop culture’ references to word usage and not definition such as the Oxford or Collins dictionaries. I understand that with urban someone can just send an email with a suggested definition and if the volunteer editors like it and vote ‘yes’ let’s include it, it is included. For me that means that if someone wanted to cloud the waters with a specific view they can. Looking forward to your reply.
I will defend my use of the term militant atheist but qualify that I do believe this is a small minority of all atheists. I have no problem using urban dictionary over Oxford on occasions because it can sometimes give a better understanding of how a word is used “on the street”. It can be more practical. As for my reference to the Russians… *shrug* Pre-Soviet Russian history is a past time for me. I acknowledge now, but didn’t recognize how obscure a reference it might be for most. That said, I will stick with the term for the same reason I will use “fundamentalist” to describe extreme forms of Christianity, Judaism, and Islam. It might not be palatable but if the shoe fits…
Lots of words change their mean over time. That creates a small problem in defining the meaning of a word. We resolve that problem with our desire to communicate. If we insist upon sticking with the original meaning of a word (and sometimes I do 😀 ), we must every time we use that word define what it means. Otherwise, we must succumb to the street definition.
Hello Ranger,
I have read this argument before in many places, but there is something about it that doesn’t sound right, although I have never been able to put my finger on it. I’m glad I saw your response today because it led me to find this:
http://gratiaetnatura.wordpress.com/2011/04/20/the-intellectual-dishonesty-of-atheists/
Of particular note for your comment is not the post itself (it partially addresses what you are saying, but only in a larger context), but the first two comments under the post. It is a long (!!) essay that strikes at the core of what you are saying. I tried to express this idea in a variety of forms in a recent series I wrote (mostly unsuccessful, I think), but I’ll let this selected quote say it better than I could (the comment suffers from some grammatical errors, but I attribute this to writing such a long response in such a short time):
“I don’t think Atheists lack Religion, and I don’t think they merely lack belief in a god. As much as they say both are self evidently True, and would think I just can’t understand them for denying this, I just can’t any longer take seriously these claims after seeing how many of them function. Any argument for Gods existence is immediately rejected and they seek an immediate counterargument. The possibility God’s existence can’t be entertained for even a moment, unless its to show how awful and evil God is in the Bible.”
To sum up my opposition to your point, when you say that there is a difference between “denying” and “to be without belief”, in application (if not in semantics), there is no difference. After all, you are here, right? By this definition, I am an atheist when it comes to Vishnu, and I prove it by not going to any sites discussing Vishnu, since such a concept is not important to me. If this were true of atheism in general, then there wouldn’t be anybody present for a debate to commence!
Although the post and comments may not adequately represent your view in all the particulars, I do find the descriptions to be a good summary of what I face when I philosophically argue with atheists. In fact, I despaired so much in the face of this kind of argument that I have decided to stop discussing anything theist vs. atheist altogether, because the only response I receive when I point to these things is “you don’t get it”. Hence, I simply shrug, say “fine” and move along.
Hi Don
Thanks for replying and I think that you have demonstrated the difference between us both, oil and water don’t mix! (If I get an grammatical thing wrong is this reply I am sure you will forgive me, most of the last was cut and pasted and I do not like to change others words).
Firstly, I am not from the US! But I have seen many news and other media sources report on atheists and atheism in an extremely negative way! We also only get the sensational stuff. So, I thought that participation in gentle conversation could bring better understanding of the issues etc.
Secondly, believers know and therefore they do not seek other information generally, not all, but most that I know and some of my friends are in positions in churches or congregations and positions of influence in them. I have looked everywhere to ensure that I made a rational decision and included Vishnu, Mithra, Horus, Heros, Egyptian, Muslim, Buddhist, Shinto, Lutheranism, Catholicism, Calvinism, Paganism and so on and so on and again so on! I have listened to many debates with most of the more famous christian apologists. I think that you just cannot think of a life without a god and you see that others also cannot live like that and so you say that we do believe but just hide it away! BUT, I will say that in someways I am just the same as you, in that I think that how could anyone believe anything like that. If they just did the research and I don’t mean the bible (although I have read it and the apocrypha and some of gnostic gospels and other works)! You should have a look at my poem on my blog called “The Atheist Search” maybe that will give you some insight into me! http://rangerginger.wordpress.com/
I was trying to be gentle in my answer to BJ and not offend anyone! He asked a question and I answered it in a metaphoric way so that it was easy to understand and with some information that would let him look at things differently and understand more. I have been on both sides of the belief coin and understand what you say, but I have journeyed far I think and came out the other side.
Ranger Ginger
I am a believer who does not want to take a day off, but rather support you fully. You bless me with your time, dedication and words…..this included. Thank you.
BJ,
I so appreciate your gentle but bold approach in expressing your faith in and love for Christ. It breaks my heart to see the carnage that lay hurting or lost at the hands of fellow Christians. Like you, I have a heart for people- all people – for they like I were created by the same maker. Therefore, they matter; they are important. I have a 22 year old daughter who now, along with her unsaved boyfriend who is much older than she – says she doesn’t believe in God, and that she never really did contrary to her upbringing. Do I cut her off? Throw her away? Reckon her as a list cause? Absolutely not. The Lord gave me a word for this situation and it was that jam to demonstrate his love unconditionally and that proving to her that he is real is his job. I love her and entreat her as a mother but in tandem, I minister to her as a lost soul who is watching my life and actions for evidence of Christ. Until the day I draw my last breath, I will continue to intercede for and demonstrate love towards her while standing on and not hiding the truth. Thanks for your daily sparks of truth! Appreciate you! You understand that truth does not have to be yelled and thrust, just spoken with a gentle boldness.
Reblogged this on 9to9dancer's Blog and commented:
My friend asked me to share this today so I will!
Reblogged this on Delight Thyself in the LORD and commented:
To anyone who would say “I believe in a different deity,” I would like to add that God is supernatural. Satan is a counterfeiter. Don’t settle for the counterfeit when you can know the God of the universe
The Fact of the Resurrection
A metropolitan (bishop) of the Orthodox Church in Russia was faced with an atheist in the congregation who loudly declared, “Today nobody believes in the resurrection of Christ.” Instead of answering the claim, the metropolitan cried out, “Chrise is risen!” and the hall, which was supposedly filled with atheists, responded with a roar, “Indeed He is risen!”
This is the proclamation of faith. It is often a waste of time and energy to argue with doubters–including ourselves. If we are assailed with unbelief, let us return to the bedrock of faith: the resurrection, for without this our faith is certainly vain. Let us shout (even alone with our private doubts) Christ is risen! It is a fact. Everything else is trivial by comparison.
Author: Elisabeth Elliot
This mentality seems inherently dismissive of what people go through when they go through doubting their faith.
I “believe” in my (parents’) house. It’s been standing up for 20+ years. It’s gone through some pretty serious changes and has withstood some extreme weather. Throughout my life, I have found the foundation to be pretty solid.
If I begin to doubt said foundation, if I am afraid that the foundation is weak and flimsy and will not sustain, and has been able to go through all this time just on a whim/happenstance, then it would become increasingly difficult to want to return to that house and said foundation.
Instead of deeming it a waste of time and energy to argue with doubters, as Elisabeth Elliot has stated, maybe try listening to what people who are doubting have to say. You don’t always have to argue, it is possible to just lend an ear.
I agree with Corrisa that doubt is not something that should just be steamrolled. On the flip side understand that EE was writing from a different generation and her use of doubters here is referring more to those who would argue just for the sake of argument. Knowing her actions and a bit of her heart I doubt she would act in person the way this text (out of context?) implies.
Ah, okay. 🙂
The major difference in a faith in Christ and/or God is that they are not physical or tangible, a house and foundation are, therefore, that faith is more of an acknowledgment. “The house is right there. I can see it.”
Reblogged this on pastor jeff's neighborhood and commented:
A blogging friend is inviting dialogue with those who doubt or deny God. I encourage you to join the discussion, whatever your perspective.
I was happy to read this. I was just have a conversation with someone about some doubts I was struggling with. I am happy to see that God used you to speak to me today. This was heaven sent…. Mission accomplished. Great read!
Hi BJ, good post. And faith is just what the word says, one has to have faith or at least make a leap of faith to believe. I am not a believer, nor any of the other categories. Rather than fitting in any of your boxes I chose to believe in humanity and the fact that there no doubt has to be something more than this daily life, but if that is a god? I’m not convinced, but do believe each and everyone has the right to believe what makes him/her happy.
I am glad you chose to read and felt free to post here. Please understand I am not a fan of boxes myself and try to smash them as often as possible. The Christian Doubter, Agnostic, Militant Atheist terms I used I tried to keep as broad as possible and they were mainly there for the sake of writing structure.
Blessings.
Well, it’s great to interact with all sorts of people and I love reading how people perceive the world and how they think.
Ravi Zacharias would be proud!
Respect what your perspective on God & Christianity. But i really don’t understand the fuss about ‘beliefs’….Christianity, Islam, Buddhism, Atheism, …. etc, etc. Is religion/ beliefs so important? Is it necessary to prove the point. I believe in goodness, love, truthfulness, honesty, compassion,… matters more. Isn’t it? For everyone?
A persons beliefs are a major part of their world view. They are like mental glasses that each of us wears through which we see and understand our world. Knowing what another believes helps us better understand their worldview/perceptions which in turn helps us better understand them.
Reblogged this on RG's 2 Cents and commented:
Come now, and let us reason together, saith the LORD:
Reblog on afriendofjesus blog! God bless you BJ!
Reblogged this on my thoughts, out loud..
I am in absolute awe! Thanks for sharing this. Whoo!
I really enjoyed reading this post…I am a believer and have a lot of questions and understanding still, and I know I don’t need all my questions answered right now or maybe ever, my human mind cannot understand something as awesome and great as God….while in my heart I know this, I often question and doubt what I know to be true (which just shows how much I really need God). It is nice to hear your view points and I really can relate to that saying about ‘I’d rather believe and be wrong than NOT believe and be wrong.’ Whew, that would really be AWEFUL to not believe and be wrong! Anytime I start to doubt or not understand something, I think about that!
That is awesome, Sarah, and thank you for sharing. For me, my fall back position when I am struggling with doubts or trials is that God is good and that He loves me. That, rather than any fear of being wrong, is what motivates me to press through until I have found my answer. God has not given us a spirit of fear but a spirit of power, of love, and of a sound mind.
Yes, true! Thanks BJ
Wonderful article and I retweeted you! God bless you and your efforts!
Reblogged this on [ Adrian D. Riojas ] and commented:
A great post.
BJ,
An atheist is someone who doesn’t believe in a god. The phrase a militant atheist has always bothered me, because I haven’t found the atheists I know to be “militant.” I often hear rhetoric that evokes images of war and destruction from believers, such as making war against sin or describing the Bible as a “sword” and being soldiers for Christ. Atheists have no need to that. Aggressive, formidable, other words that indicate harshness? I can understand that, but “militant,” I feel Christians should check themselves and their eagerness to use that word. Yes, the League of Militant Atheist was an actual thing a while ago, but I’ve a feeling that specific group is not what Christians are referring to today when say “militant atheist.” Seems to be more a person such as Hitchens or Dawkins; people who just won’t shut up about their unbelief.
I doubt Albert Camus said that. Camus was often described as an existentialist, though he rejected that title. I have heard that mentality from Blaise Pascal, under Pascal’s Wager. Maybe that’s what you meant?
Such as?
Wonderfully worded sentiment. I’m not sure I entirely agree, but you have broken down what I think many Christians try to say but end up coming across as arrogant or unwilling to listen.
As for the faith and a chair idea; no I don’t have faith that the chair will work. If I’m home, I’ve sat on the chair 16,000 times. Whether at home or somewhere else, I can see the chair, I can feel the chair, if I really wanted to be assured/kind of strange, I could smell and lick the chair. Based on previous experiences, and no immediate evidence that the chair is falling apart, I’m making an educated guess that the chair will support me. I guess you can call that “faith,” but it’s not the same faith as religious people have. When Christians argue that point, it feels as though they are being willingly obtuse, ignoring the different meanings and implications of the word “faith.”
All that aside, I really appreciate this blog and your effort to relate to people struggling with their religious faith. It’s refreshing to see this. And I have written more than enough. 😛
Corrisa, thank you for reading and your well thought out response.
First, on Camus:
http://www.brainyquote.com/quotes/authors/a/albert_camus.html
http://www.goodreads.com/author/quotes/957894.Albert_Camus
I know Pascal said it first but his “wager” tends to get overplayed. Camus is more my league as I’ve flirted with existentialism in my love for all things Kierkegaard and Heidegger.
I’m sorry if the chair analogy didn’t work much for you. I was trying to do two things with it at once. If you say you don’t need faith in it because you can see, touch, hear (when it falls) taste (the raspberry jam you spilled on it and now no one’s looking) and smell (the fart emanating from) it. Fine. What about hydrogen? Or any atoms? There are things we can know to be true even without Baconian direct empirical evidence.
Ultimately, though, trying to argue for the non/existence of God from evidence is a pointless exercise. We are of the stuff of earth. God is other. It is like to parts of the Mona Lisa trying to argue the existence of Da Vinci. Without revelation from “other” the argument will never get anywhere. But, you say, Da Vinci really does exist. No kidding. The Universe is God’s masterpiece.
No, thank you BJ for writing a well-thought response to me! I really appreciate it.
I don’t understand the point about observing atoms. We have the technology to observe and work with atoms, as is evidenced by nuclear energy/nuclear weapons. Has this information been available to all of humanity through out the course of our time on this planet? No, and the same goes for the knowledge of germs and various medical conditions. We know the existence of atoms through scientific inquiry and testing.
I agree, sometimes it does seem silly to argue the non/existence of God when we are “the stuff of the earth.” I think a lot of the frustration from the skeptic/atheist camp comes from the perception that many who are religious are trying to force their faith on others, either directly or by controlling the culture.
I think discussions like this are helpful for that very reason, listening to the other side and, even if one doesn’t agree, to try and understand where they are coming from.
So thanks again!
Its late and I haven’t really slept in three days. Since tomorrow is Sunday and I have church…
But I didn’t want to go much longer without replying.
Really, and knowledge or belief in God comes down to a matter of Revelation. If God is other, then without Him revealing Himself to us we are stuck up a creek without a paddle. Has God revealed Himself? If so, when and how? How reliable are the witnesses? I wrote about this way back when I first started writing publicly. Without going back and fixing/updating/rereading it, if you are interested a copy of that is here:
http://crosspoint.activeboard.com/t18871984/understanding-revelation-or-ive-been-hit-by-a-truck/
Good night and God bless.
Hi Corrisa,
I like what you said about the chair – that based on previous experiences, you’re making an educated guess that it will support you. I cannot see, smell or touch spiritual truths, but I base my faith in further spiritual principles on previous experience. My faith is, in that sense, educated, as your guess about the chair is. I think there’s a lot of misunderstanding out there (among religious adherents and not) about what faith, in the religious sense, is. It’s both a leap and evidence-based. The evidence, however, is not usually physical. And although I cannot sense it with my five physical senses, I can see its effects with those senses, which is one part of the evidence that goes toward increasing my faith.
Also appreciate your description of Hitchens and Dawkins : ).
Hi there.
Atheist checking in.
I’d argue that even the most strident atheists shouldn’t be described as militant. Unless someone is committing acts of violence, they aren’t militant.
You speak a lot about evil and the damage that religion has caused when addressing atheists. Do you think that atheists don’t believe because of these issues? If so, I think you’ll find that isn’t true for most of us. We see no evidence for a Christian God. Just as I’m sure you see no evidence for Zeus.
Is also argue religious beliefs have done much more harm than good.
Hope to hear back. 🙂
Sheesh… anybody else want to jump on the anti-militant bandwagon. I actually did get a couple nasty responses from some militant atheists and a couple anti-theists (of the, “Yes God exists and He’s evil scum” type). I deleted them since they contributed nothing to a rational dialogue but perhaps I should have kept a couple as “exhibit A” of what I was talking about.
With regards to the “harm than good” statement I would have two clarifying questions:
1) Are you speaking specifically Christian or religion in general
2) On what are you basing this claim
Before I answer, I’d love to know better where exactly you are coming from with this.
Thanks, muggle, and everyone up to this point, for commenting.
Be Blessed.
Hi.
Just to clarify, not all anti-theists believe. Also, calling God scum is not militant. I think you realize that, just making sure.
I was speaking of both religion at large and Christianity. I’m the type to include sources but I don’t have much time right now. I’ll expand on this response later today or tomorrow.
Thanks for the quick response!
Muggle
Reblogged this on Lyn Leahz.
This is a thorny issue. Christians can range from ignorant to enlightened. Atheists can range from ignorant to enlightened. Atheists can be true physicalists, or pantheists. Christians can harbor beliefs from rigid monotheism to pantheism (the mystics)
It’s like the 2 American political parties: the more I inspect them, the closer they look to each other.
If you have solid belief but no personal resurrection, no personal growth and development, then you missed the point of the bible, and you are a fool.
Jim (non-christian, believer in divinity)
PS: Pagan’s (the occult) identify as atheists often. Maybe it’s time to co-opt a new term, guys.
Salam (islamic greetings meaning peace on you)
I am a Muslimah and I faithfully read your blog.
This is a particularly intriguing and provocative post. However, I am especially impressed with the way the respondents against your argument conducted themselves. Usually when one touch this very sensitive subject, you get a lot of vitriol and innuendos.
There were a few early posts with ranting reminiscent of a sixth grade bully boasting on the playground. Since they didn’t contribute anything of substance to the conversation, I didn’t approve their comments. Moderator’s privilege. 😉 That said, I am also impressed with both the intelligence and civility displayed here.
I was vilified in a comment recently. The blogger said that technology is advancing to the point that all persons with a religious belief system would soon be “treated” for their mental illness. I responded and said that 90% of the world had a religious belief, which constitutes the norm. The blogger then went to my about page, saw that I had written ONE word about being bipolar in a list of illnesses that I was struggling with, then sent the cruelest response I have ever had the tearful experience to read. I demanded an apology; he abused me further. Obviously I made a bad situation worse. Worst of all, I caused Christians to come off as weak and defenseless. And I am a bit bitter over that. I wish a bigger fish then I could take him on. If you want to look at his site it is Tongue Sandwhich.
I will check out the site and possibly leave a comment or two. It might take me a few days to get over there, though.
Be blessed.
Hello Queenlorene! Christians by themselves are weak. That is the reason we must let Jesus fight our battles. David against Goliath appeared suicidal, but the giant was no match for the shepherd boy. You see, Queenlorene, “The weapons of our warfare are not carnal, but mighty through God to the pulling down of strong holds” (2 Corinthians 10:4). When Jesus was on earth, He fought many battles, but He fought them with the Word of God.
Queenlorene, you are a victor–not a victim. In His sermon on the mount, Jesus declares the following; “Blessed are they, which are persecuted for righteousness’ sake, for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.
Blessed are you, when men shall revile you, and persecute you, and shall say all manner of evil
against you falsely, for my sake” (Matthew 5:10-11).
God blesses.
It always fascinates me when critics use the very morality expressed in the OT to attack God as somehow immoral Himself. Then when arguing that this religion of ours is somehow the creator of cruelty on this earth they themselves are cruel to you. Logic does not win a convert. A change of heart does. And only Jesus can pull that impossibility off. Soli Deo Gloria
The Militant Atheist – That claim to know God has done so much damage. Because I claim to know, and he claims to know a different God. So we fight it out. The institutionalization of religion has done so much damage throughout time. It has been the cause of so many wars, and so much oppression. How can a good God exist if this is how His followers are gonna act?
The atheist claims nothing of the sort. The atheist does not believe in gods and your christian god is nothing special.
Such a definition merely demonstrates your ignorance, so typical of the religious.
The first sentence in this paragraph is in response to the last sentence of the one above it: “How dare we have the audacity to claim to know God?” I am agreeing with the atheist that this claim, made by Christians, has done damage. Does this help clarify?
Apologies, I misread the piece. It did sound a little ambiguous though.
So, to clear up any further misunderstanding on my part, are you a Christian, and if so, what exactly is the point you are trying to make, please?
That really depends on which perspective you are coming from:
To the Christian struggling with doubt – It is OK to express those doubts. You don’t have to try to pretend you have it all together.
To the agnostic – What are those areas about faith, or particularly the Christian faith that give you pause?
To the militant atheist (or neo-atheist as has been proposed) – Why do you feel that it is important to take such a strong stand against those who chose to believe?
Ah, fine.
I take a strong stand simply because Christians (you?) espouse unsubstantiated diatribe.
In itself this is okay. Silly, but okay. You are an adult and can believe what you like providing you do not inculcate children. This is tantamount to child abuse and I will speak up against it every time i come across religious nonsense.
If you were to promise that you would never preach to children my stance would invariably be softer.
I was reading that it is about the age of four that children first begin to distinguish between fact and fiction. So should all information presented to a child before that age be true? Are fictional TV shows directed at younger children a form of child abuse? What about talking about Santa Clause? Is the pretending that he is real to young children a form of child abuse?
Now add in that presenting Christian truths helps give a solid framework for morality and self esteem. Think about the stories and Christian songs taught to young ones. Calling these child abuse it just plain silly.
I would respond to your post, but it only seems to be addressed to militant Atheists. The fact you include an insult in your description gives me an indication of how seriously you want to engage in debate. As merely a regular Atheist, I see your post is not directed towards me.
I am not interested in debate, but I am very open to dialogue. I did not mean insult through use of the world militant and as you can see from above comments we’ve already gone around that circle. So please, feel free to respond. I intended no judgment, apologize if any was felt, and would love to hear what you have to say.
I agree entirely with Robert’s comment. It seems bizarre to tack on “militant” here. I know you’ve addressed it in the comments to some degree, but consider my futher weighing in as a request to address it in the actual post.
And a dialogue about a topic between people who fundamentally disagree is a debate, no way around it.
Dialogue is about finding common ground and walking in it while seeking to increase understanding by exploring differences. Debate is about “winning” the discussion. If I was about proving myself right, I would engage in debate. If I was about increasing my knowledge I would engage in dialogue. For me a “win” is if at the end of the day both of us can say, “I don’t agree with him but I respect him and he had some interesting points I should look into more.”
I like that you are open for dialog… However, I am convinced that we are unable to convince anyone. There have been times when I am reading my Bible, and I have to re-read a section over and over and over again because I just can’t seem to get it in my head. Then a couple weeks or months later I will suddenly be able to read it, and it all works with whatever is going on in my life at the moment. It’s like what happens to Paul when the scales fall off his eyes. It’s all right in front of him the whole time, but until Jesus removes the barrier, there is no understanding… and it all happens at exactly the time it is supposed to, when He is ready.
I enjoy reading your blog, and I like how you give the reader a chance to feel it out with the read/relate/respond method. My only wish is that you would write the scripture out cause most people (including myself unfortunately) will just read what is here. For the doubting Christian it would be beneficial to not be able to avoid it. Cheers and God bless!!!
Thank you for the encouragement. I agree ultimately it takes revelation to create understanding. That’s what I love about God. He takes the burden of needing to win arguments right out of my hands.
When we were first starting out in the River Walk, we discussed whether or not to include the scripture. I personally was for it until convinced otherwise. Doing so would roughly triple the length of the posts and so many would be put off by the length that we would lost a good portion of the potential audience. We would rather many read a little than a few read a lot.
God bless
Reblogged this on In godly fear of the Lord and commented:
A well measured response to three perspectives regarding doubt and the knowledge of God …
Reblogged this on Seventeen 20 and commented:
This is more than worth reading.
WOW! You’ve covered it. Thank you. My pastor said one Sunday, you can doubt God but do stay there. I then came to the conclusion that it was okay for me to question Him, yell at Him, but I had to hang around long enough to listen.
Atheist have puzzled me for a long time…based on those I know, I’ve noticed in a time of trouble or sometimes doubt, they call God’s name. How could one call on someone they do not believe in?
I’m floored at the concept…God should crete a miracle that can be proved. The definition of miracle, something impossible completed. No proof needed. I’m just sayin’
There’s a difference in shouting “Oh my God!” upon being suddenly startled and asking God to help me when I need something (which I no longer do, as I see no point in talking to the ceiling). I also do not believe that there is such a thing as sacred manure, but I tend to call on that from time to time, as well…
As many atheists have said throughout the years: “The burden of proof is on those who believe the improbable, not those who question it.”
Thank you so much for writing this. Poetic, beautiful, and TRUE! I fall into the category of doubting Christian sometimes, but mostly these days I doubt myself much more than Him. Will I be counted worthy? What if I can never really lay my own ambitions, vanity, or my own self aside–in the way that will please Him? Maybe in a way this is doubting who He is. God keep you and God bless your work. I can’t wait to read more. ❤
Pingback: Articles to Reblog | Lessons by Heart
I grew up always believing in God and always trusting him. When I was 19 I was bullied and lied into surrendering my son by my parents and the so called Christian adoption agency. It devastated me so I turned my back on my faith as I was angry with God as well as my parents and the adoption agency. Post reunion and 23 years on I learned to let the barrier drop. I had to learn to forgive my parents, the adoption agency, even myself. I knew that it wasn’t God’s fault what happened and I came back to my faith. God was always there for me yet the pain I was going through blinded me. I am back where I should be again and my faith is even stronger than before.
Reblogged this on Lessons by Heart and commented:
BJ wrote an excellent post. It’s my pleasure to share it with you.
\o/
Praise Jesus
Pingback: An Open Letter To Those Who Doubt or Deny God | Dagbok på datan returns
Pingback: girl gone missing | THE WORM IN MY APPLE
Reblogged this on thedreamyactiveinertbrain and commented:
OUR GOD IS HERE—in this room, in your heart, he is near, nearer than breath, heartbeat, nearer than you are closer to second chance….more real than touch……..
Pingback: An Open Letter To Those Who Doubt or Deny God | The River Walk | the PRACTICE of DISCOVERY
Your writings are very inspirational. I look forward to read more from you.
Hi BJ,
Your way of reaching god is religion. But there are many other ways to reach GOD other than religion. It depends on people’s nature to choose their way.
Actually, it is not about me reaching God. That is impossible. Instead, He came down to reach me.
Hi. I nominated you for the Sunshine Award. Please get the badge at http://wp.me/p32YrK-mJ and get more info, Have a blessed day. 😀
Pingback: An Open Letter To Those Who Doubt or Deny God | JimMorrisonDreamDiaries
Great thoughts. Thanks for putting them out there, Binghamton – you’re not too far away. Mostly, sorry for your losses, they are some pretty tough ones and you came out on the other side solid. Nothing concrete can ever prove that kind of holding power, only you know by experience. Peace, Jamie
Yup, you head down 88 and our church meets almost where the road stops.
Pingback: VIDEO An Open Letter To Those Who Doubt or Deny God | StopAndPrayTV
Doubting implies that there is something to doubt. “Militant atheist” implies that one needs to be militant in order to refuse to believe.
How about “totally bored atheist”?
There is no invisible man in the sky who knows all and sees all. The notion is laughable. Memo to religion-purveyors: You leave me alone, I’ll leave you alone, and we’ll all get along splendidly. I have more important things to think about.
I did recognize that there was another “group” of atheists I was not addressing. Most of those that choose to think critically find themselves leaning more toward agnosticism. Those that care passionately find themselves leaning more towards militant, or neo-atheism. To those that neither think nor care… what can I say?
An engagement would be wonderful (I’m always happy for those), but I do believe you’ve left out a contingent and, in doing so, have fed certain incorrect stereotypes, specifically about atheists. I wrote a blog post on Agnostic Atheism (essentially why I insist that agnosticism is not a middle ground between atheism and theism; it also talks about my personal reasons for for not being a theist, although I am working on a redux of the post which will take back the part about spacetime not necessarily because I was wrong, but because at the time I assumed there was more knowledge in that area than we really had), and it’d be great if you could read it.
Interesting internal dialogue. I enjoyed reading your perspectives. Dogma, fact, proof, rules, regulations, structure, and the age of reason. How would you feel if I told you that I was confident that my curiosity and wonder are stronger than my doubt of your beliefs? Judgement. Hmmm. It’s a real challenge for me to gracefully express how I feel about this. I prefer to find common faith and keep it to that. We share one. It’s a pre-Christ faith. The golden rule. It’s the reason I’m here, commenting on your post. I hope you find your secret garden. 🙂