Read: Leviticus 16:29 – 18:30, Mark 7:24 – 8:10, Psalm 41:1-13, Proverbs 10:15-16
Do not practice homosexuality, having sex with another man as with a woman. It is a detestable sin. (Leviticus 18:22)
Relate: Around junior high and the early years of high school there was a Tv show called In Living Color. It was in a lot of ways a knock-off of Saturday Night Live by a predominantly black cast and featured such great names as Jamie Fox, J-Lo, Jim Carey, and pretty much every single one of the very prolific Wayans family. What the show is most remembered for, at least for me, is the “Wanda” sketches by Jamie Fox, and the Men On… sketches by Damon Wayans and David Greer with their “Three Snaps in the Z formation”. They were great… at least I thought so at the time. I can remember being a part of a comedy sketch around that time where we were Frank and Hank Delahoopinpoopin. Along with In Living Color, we imitated a ridiculously over-the-top gay culture and set of mannerisms and got all kinds of laughs. Twenty-plus years later, that would no longer work. What one generation whispered about it as taboo, the next generation mocked it as comedy and now this generation accepts it as normal.
React: This verse in Leviticus, one among eighteen prohibitions against various forms of incest, adultery, homosexuality, and sodomy, is one of the most frequently quoted verses by the Westboro types along with the most frequently rationalized, downplayed, or marginalized by those who would want to normalize homosexuality. Honestly, I myself am having an incredibly difficult time even writing this in an effort to balance truth and love. The common response for evangelicals has become something along the lines of “homosexuality is sin but so is lying and pride and we all struggle with those” or some such semi-truths that I hear so often it has become cliche’.
That doesn’t begin to dig into the struggle between the desire to do right and the lust for sin faced by Christians who struggle in this area. It doesn’t begin to delve into the war someone in the closet has both against culture and their own seemingly overwhelming passions. I don’t struggle with this temptation and so I cannot begin to address the trial, the difficulty, one who faces it must go through. Yes, I have other struggles, but I will not demean others by trying to compare apples and oranges. Your struggle is yours, mine is mine, we can have sympathy but not empathy. Only God can do that and He does. Our struggle against sin, whatever that sin, should not be whispered around as taboo, and it does not deserve to be mocked as comedy. We must also be sure not to simply accept it as normal. Scripture is authoritative. It is our standard for faith and conduct. It is unjust to use it as a weapon to abuse others, but neither can it be rationalized, downplayed, or marginalized. It is what it is. Our job is to surrender.
Respond:
Dear God,
I pray that You help us to look to You and to Your word as the standard of right and wrong. Don’t let us be swayed by what culture dictates. Don’t let us be convinced by our own conscience or passions. You are the standard for what is right. Your truth is the plumb line for holiness. And it is only Your mercy and grace that gives us the strength to overcome evil. In every struggle, let us approach Your throne of grace with confidence knowing that You love us and care for us no matter how we were born and no matter what ways we have rebelled against You. Let Your love conquer through our lives.
Amen
THE RIVER WALK 
Amen! Awesome post. There are so many, Christians and non-Christians that struggle with this.
I often they to remind myself that it’s not my place to judge. As far as I’m concerned, I agree, sin is sin, regardless of the type. I try to just love people and let his glory shine through me.
Thank you again for sharing.
As a gay man who LOVES the Lord and the spiritual life I’d like to share my journey. As a child I was raised with all the Christian ideas of homosexuality and sin. When puberty hit and I started noticing other boys as well as adult males (just like my straight male friends did with females) that’s when I started to live in my head. As a young adult, I continued having relationships with other men – in my head. Those little thoughts soon turned into big tumors which would eventually cover the person God created me to be. On the outside, I was a good Christian boy who attended church every Sunday and did my best to dismiss these thoughts of which I had absolutely no control over. I didn’t wake up one day and say, “for the rest of my life I’m going to be gay.” Nor did I ever try to fool myself into believing that if I were to marry a good wholesome Christian girl, (because good wholesome Christian girls can be easily fooled) God would take care of the rest.
As each day passed I did my very best to live a good Christian life, eventually those tumorous thoughts become cancerous. I eventually ventured out and delve head first into the lifestyle and here is what I found. Many gay men and women are both healthy and weak just like their straight counter parts. Those gay men and women who had healthy conscious parents who loved them unconditionally no matter who they were and brought them up to be the best human being they could be were never found in gay bars or in underground subculture groups. They were out living healthy lifestyles with other gay men and women who were bought up with the same values. On the flip side, most gay men and women I found at the clubs or bars were the same as the straight men and women I find in regular bars; we’re all looking for relationships and love in unhealthy places.
When I eventually left Sodom and Gomorrah it wasn’t as scary as the bible made it out to be because what I found were broken human beings. All of us, gay or straight, are broken in some way.
Today at 41, I’m undoing the shame and guilt that was laid upon me from people who thought were saving my soul. It’s that same shame and guilt that effects how I interact with co-workers, friends and everyday life situations. Every time I approach my boss at work, I have to remind myself by saying, “you’re a worthy human being who has the right to express his feelings and ideas”; otherwise I lack self confidence and end up not getting what I need.
In my daily prayers, I ask the Holy Spirit (yes He’s still resides in my heart even though I’m gay) to undo all the psychological damage that was created which has kept me from living a full life, a life abundant promised to us by our Creator.
One of the things I do not like sbout alcoholics anonymous and narcanon is that they encourage their members to continue to identify by their weakness. “Hello. My name is Joe and I’m an alcoholic…” It doesn’t matter that Joe hasn’t had a drink in twenty years. He still identifies by his weakness. And that guarantees he will never be fully free.
I don’t use that to compare but only to illustrate. While we must be alert and aware of where or weaknesses are, our only true identity comes as children of God. It is His strength that helps us in our weakness. It is His grace that lifts us when we fall.
Awesome testimony!!! Thank you for sharing your victory
Jesus looked at them and said, “With man this is impossible, but with God all things are possible.”Matt 19:26. Not by your strength but by His power. You were powerless over sin because it was out of your strength….”I did my best…” Give it to Jesus. There is power and victory in the name of Jesus 🙂
You walk your own path. Scripture is a guide, but it is the Holy Spirit that leads you on you spiritual journey and your life journey. Be quiet and listen.if there is someone you care for act on it. He is helping you on this difficult journey but with a great joy along the way if you choose it.bless you in your struggles and give you a clear head to decide what is right for you.
Be quiet, listen, hear Him?
Scripture is more than just a guide. It is the plumbline that helps us distinguish the Spirits’s voice from our own subconscious desires. Like Paul writes, “my conscience is clear but that does not make me innocent…”
Awesome thanks for the word
“Your struggle is yours, mine is mine, we can have sympathy but not empathy. Only God can do that and He does. Our struggle against sin, whatever that sin, should not be whispered around as taboo, and it does not deserved to be mocked as comedy. We must also be sure not to simply accept it as normal. Scripture is authoritative. It is our standard for faith and conduct. It is unjust to use it as a weapon to abuse others, but neither can it be rationalized, downplayed, or marginalized. It is what it is. Our job is to surrender.”
That’s not a meal I will be chewing on all day!
Great article! I especially like the part where you say, “What one generation whispered about as taboo, the next generation mocked as comedy and now this generation accepts as normal”. This really resonated with me as I find this to be very true. Homosexuality is all over the internet, television shows, movies and now being forced into our elementary school systems here in Toronto. It just seems like they are trying to normalize this more and more. I accept everyone for who they are regardless of their sexual preference but I am also a Christian and a believer in God. However, what others do is their prerogative, I simply don’t enjoy the world sending out a message that this is normal. Well written and a nice read! 🙂
Wow! Great post, Beejai.
Thanks for the reinforcement (that you don’t realize), but I’ve said pretty much the same thing in my book, “It’s Not Normal And God Said It First!” Though many have thought the original print edition was bashing gay people, they did not see beyond the “scriptures” to understand my love for people and to want to see them aligned with God’s plan for their lives. No matter what we say about the things God says, some will always rationalize their own biases and think we, who love, are the ones who hate. We cannot confuse loving others with sugarcoating truth or not telling it at all. Thanks again!
Refreshing to read truth in your post about what has become, “As in the days of Noah…” I am concerned about “spiritualbahana”. GOD is not willing that any perish, but ALL come to repentance. The Christian Spirit-filled life is one of daily surrender to God’s will and being transformed into His Image. He doesn’t leave us with weaknesses, faults, or sin. His desire is to fill us with His Presence, Joy and Power. We can not allow the culture of today to blind us to the consequences of our choices. We can become deceived having a seared conscience and not know the path to righteousness. As Christians, we are to love one another. We do not reject an individual choosing a life contrary to God’s Word. We accept and pray earnestly for their eyes to be opened and hearts and lives healed.
Many have made the mistake of rejecting an individual living a homosexual lifestyle which has hurt them and possibly the opportunity to see a miracle of God’s grace at work in transforming their life. May God help us love others with the love He has shown us.
Thanks for writing about a subject that is such a controversial one right now in the church. A fine line to walk between mercy and justice – between showing compassion and remaining true to the Bible.
Hi Beejai! I have enjoyed your daily comments on God’s word using the readings from the One Year Bible. Because I use the same scriptures for my daily “What’s The Good Word?” I find your insights complimentary and food for my soul as well. I’ve nominated you for the Very Inspiring Blogger Award. You may see your nomination on my post “Thank You” (February 26) at lljostes.wordpress.com. At the bottom of the page are three things for your consideration should you decide to accept the award. May God continue to richly bless your outreach ministry through this blog. I certainly appreciate your thoughts! ~ Laura
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Many of the prohibitions in Leviticus have to do with idol worship. Worship of Baal included many different sex acts all done for the purpose of worshiping Baal. This did NOT relate to a loving monogamous relationship. By your blog you are inferring that all LGBT chose their sexual orientation which is not the case. Christians are judging and condemning when they make sure to let the LGBT population know they won’t get into heaven unless they change their entire identity. We are called to love unconditionally, and let God do the judging. Even Jesus Himself stated he did not come to judge the world, but to restore the lost.
Spiritualbahana states the Holy Spirit resides in his heart, and I have met many LGBT who have a tender heart for Christ. Many LGBT seek Jesus, but are turned away by the gatekeepers of our Christian churches because of their lack of understanding of God’s incredible love. Please read my blog, A Slow Burn @ http://www.truthpathblog.com for more on this issue. BTW – God called me to be a Pastor a year ago and I am a straight woman.
The Leviticus verses refer to the extreme idol worship that occurred among the pagans the Israelites lived amongst. The worship of Baal consisted of extreme sexual immorality. This is not relevant to a loving monogamous relationship. By your blog writing you strongly infer that all LGBT choose their sexual orientation. This is not the case, so when Christians judge and condemn the LGBT they are not exemplifying Christ’s unconditional love. Jesus Himself stated he did not come to judge the world, but to restore all to God. Many LGBT seek Jesus, but are turned away at churches because the gatekeepers emphasize that the LGBT person must completely change their identity to be fully accepted into the Christian community. God’s love is so much more than we can even begin to understand. For more a deeper understanding of this topic, read my blog, A Slow Burn at http://www.truthpathblog.com. BTW- I am a straight woman who God called to be a Pastor one year ago.
Reblogged this on emalineachieng and commented:
MUNGU ANAJUA THE BEST FOR WATU.EMEN?
To spiritual bahana: Thank you for having the courage to share your story and your struggle. There are many people like yourself who struggle to remain chaste while facing same-sex attraction. I encounter stories like yours in confession, and I can assure you that many people with same-sex attraction find peaceful and joyful lives following the Lord. Unfortunately, their stories are usually not heard because of the privacy of them. One of the biggest obstacles our society places upon people with same-sex attraction as well as “straight” people who have never found the right person to marry, is the presumption that you have to have sex and get married in order to be happy. Yes, these are gifts of God and can bring great reward when used properly, but marriage does not hold the monopoly on happiness. You can find peace and joy in the Lord outside of sexual relationships. As a priest who has lived his celibacy faithfully for twenty-five years I can assure you this is true, because I know this personally. I am very happy in my chaste life, and anyone can find happiness in God if they merely live the life they have been given according to his call to holiness.
Thank you for posting this. It opens the discussion as to what is sin. Is it purely related to sexual desire, or does it also encompass what any decent person would regard as horrible–things such as slavery and torture, which are nowhere prohibited in the Bible?
What is clearly wrong? Private, nonintrusive acts (no matter how disgusting we may find them) or actions that intrude into others’ private lives, intrusions that harm real, living people?
Sin is anything that leads us away from our goal of union with Christ. Whether it’s sexual or not, a thought or an action, something done that is wrong or something necessary that one failed to do, whether private or public, if it leads us away from our total union with Christ (which is what we mean by going to heaven), it is sinful. As Catholics, we do not believe that the Bible is the only source of revelation of God’s will and His commandments. The Magisterium of the church and Apostolic Tradition are equally important sources, so just because a certain teaching may be absent from the Bible, if it is taught in any of the other two sources, it is just as true. The Bible does not contain every truth that will ever be revealed; in fact, Paul’s letters indicate some practices that were already accepted as sinful by the Church long before the books of the New Testament were ever written. So we follow the teachings found in all three sources.
Thank you for replying. I cannot tell you how refreshing it is to talk about issues without personal insult. Again, thank you. It’s refreshing.
“Union with Christ” is an abstraction–what does that even mean? Please define;
Where we depart is in my consideration of the Bible as a human, all too human document.
What is sin? Is it something proscribed in the Bible? Or is it something that produces human misery in the here and now? Or both?
Peace,
Chaz
Yes, I eat pork, because the writings in the New Testament tell us Jesus rendered all foods clean. In cases where there are conflicts, that’s where the authority of the Church steps in to guide us, just as when there are varying opinions on what is right and what is wrong.
The idea of deciding for oneself what is good or bad is precisely what Original Sin was. God told Adam and Eve not to eat the fruit of the tree of knowledge of good and evil, which is another way of saying, “Don’t try to decide for yourself what is good and what is bad. I am God and you are not. I know all things, you do not. You can be mistaken, I cannot. Follow what I tell you and you will remain in Paradise. I will never lead you astray.” But Satan tempted them by lying to them: “No, you will not die! God knows very well the minute you eat of the tree you will be like gods; you will know right from wrong and will not need to listen to him any more.” Eve saw that the fruit was pleasing and “desirable for knowing good from evil”, and she ate it. So did Adam. Did they then discover they were just like God, knowing right from wrong? No. They saw that they were naked; they saw their shame. The moral of the story is, always listen to God, even if it is hard for us. God’s way may not always be the easy way, but it is always the true way. Jesus added, “f anyone wishes to be my follower he must deny himself, take up his cross, and follow me every day.”
The cross a person with same-sex attraction bears is that he will not be able to enter into the Sacrament of Marriage and engage in sexual activity. That can seem painful, but as a celibate chaste priest who has lived without sex my whole life, I can tell you that one does not have to have sex in order to find happiness and emotional fulfillment. In other words, sex is not a need. No one will die if he doesn’t have sex. Eating food, drinking water, breathing air, those are needs. Sex is a desire, not a need, and like any desire we must control it. That’s the discipline following Jesus requires. Jesus did not experience all the pain of the nails and the crown of thorns and die on the cross to tell us “figure out what will make you happy and just do it!” That was what Satan tempted and what led to Original Sin. Jesus says, “deny yourself and follow me.” Not everyone is strong enough to do that, but those who do will find peace in Christ. The rest will forever find Him a stumbling block. So, do you want to pick up your cross and find peace or forever see Christ as a stumbling block? The choice is yours.
“Union with Christ” means becoming perfect. The Mystery of the Incarnation is that God became a man so that man could become as God. When God became a man, he was the perfect sinless man. Now we are called to become one with him in our mind and our will by following everything he teaches us and by thinking the way he does so that we are thinking as God does. When we think with Christ, we think with God, and we think perfectly; thus, our will is perfected, and that’s what “going to heaven” really means. In the Eucharist we eat Jesus’ flesh, and now even our bodies are one with his, which means we will rise again on the last day just as he did.
As for the Bible, that’s a stumbling block. Without faith that it is the living word of God, it will seem to be only an ancient human text with no more value than any other ancient document. With faith, it is the inspired word of God. I can’t convince you to believe it; you have to accept it on your own. But one thing that may help is to remember that Catholics are not Fundamentalists. We believe in the inerrancy of the spiritual message, not that the Bible is an historically accurate science text book. We also believe that the Church helps us understand the Bible so we can know what it really means and not just what it seems, which has led so many other people into problems.
I love the conversation here. Just want to throw in for anyone reading that Carozza’s “we” does not include me. I like and respect what he has said here but don’t necessarily agree with all of it. Primarily, the Roman Catholic Church is not an authoritative source for faith and conduct. They have a lot of good to say, but they aren’t authoritative.
That’s all.
Carry on.
Right on to the site moderator. I understand that “Father C.” doesn’t necessarily reflect your opinions.
Thank you for hosting this discussion.
The point remains that people are humane to the extent that they cherry pick their sacred texts. Nice people pick the humane passages. Mean people pick the verses that justify their viciousness.
Neither points to a divine origin.
And now I get to disagree with you. The rcc is not authoritative. Scripture is. Being humane doesn’t determine what you read. Even the harshest of texts still inspires and lead to truth. For example: http://tworiversblog.com/2013/06/19/smash-all-the-babies-61913/
Thank you for making my points for me.Overall, I think we agree.
How can you possibly believe in the literal interpretation? Do you believe in witchcraft? Do you literally believe “Thou shalt not suffer a witch to live”? (ex. 22:18)
Do you eat pork? Bible says not to eat it. Bible says a lot of things not to do, and even more to do. I eat pork, every day. And the reason is because it’s cheaper than beef, and it tastes better. I eat because it’s one of my primary needs. And pork does the job. Sex and intimacy are also my needs. If someone finds that intimacy with a man fulfills his needs, then why is that more of a sin than just eating pork? Why is it a sin at all? Just because Bible says so? Koran says to kill infidel. Bible also says you should stone people for certain sins. Why is it you don’t do the stoning?
Jesus loves me this I know. For the bible tells me so. Little ones to him belong. They are weak but he is strong. Yes Jesus LOVES ME. Yes Jesus LOVES ME. Yes Jesus LOVES ME…the bible tells me so.
there is not, nor ever was nor ever will be a BUT after that sentence. YES JESUS LOVES ME. White, yellow black red straight gay queer transgender male female child adult…JESUS LOVES ME.
Thanks for letting me share 🙂
Jesus loves me when I’m good. When I do the things I should. Jesus loves me when I’m bad, even though it makes Him sad.
There is no amount of good we can do that will somehow “win” more love from Him. There is also no amount of evil we can commit that will ever make Him love us less. Unlimited, unfathomable, unconditional love does not equate with unconditional acceptance of the things we do. Our area of weakness, of temptation, doesn’t define us. His grace defines us.
Jesus is NOT a mean dude with a bat over my head for the decisions I make. He is love. Please unfollow if you don’t agree. God does not not accept a lifestyle that is mans doing. I finally have a loving concept of God. I am not letting ANYONE talk me out of or attempt to, out of the way I believe God to be. Thank you.
It is great to have an understanding of a loving God. God’s love goes so much further and deeper, it is far richer than anything we could imagine. God is love. He personifies the greatest of definitions of love. God is patient. He is kind. He does not envy. He does not boast. He is not proud. He does not dishonor others. He is not self seeking. He is not easily angered. He keeps no record of wrongs. He does not delight in evil but rejoices in the truth.
Get that? Love does not delight in evil but rejoices in the truth. If we have a concept of God that doesn’t match up with truth. If we have an understanding of God that delights in evil… that is not a God of love. The question is not: do we love the way we believe God to be? The question is: do we believe in the loving God as He is? You’re right, we don’t have a mean dude with a bat over our head for the decisions we make. No, we have a loving friend with nails in his hands because of the decisions we made.
Yes, you are very correct. Jesus loves you. But he also loves us enough not to leave us in our sinful and fallen state but to call us back to the holiness in him that was lost by Original Sin and that we lose in our unique sins. He loves us so much that he doesn’t want to leave us being mediocre or only partly good, but challenges us: “be perfect, as your heavenly father is perfect.” (Matt. 5:48)
PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE DO NOT TAG ME WITH YOUR MESSAGE. IT IS TOXIC AND NOT APPROPRIATE FOR ME. THANK YOU.
Why are you so angry? Is it because people are making you face that perhaps you have formed your own opinion of what God wants of you that is not his, and that you have convinced yourself that it’s okay in God’s eyes to follow a practice he clearly is trying to call you away from? Think about it: suppose you are wrong; suppose God WILL in fact judge you for deliberately disobeying what he teaches? The stakes are very high! Be sure you know for certain what God wants before you convince yourself that what your doing pleases him. You could be listening, not to the voice of God, but to the voice of Satan leading you astray.
not angry i say please 3 times because you don’t listen. you need to leave me alone. i am not interested in communicating with you. you judge that i am angry instead of asking…i would not at all like to know the god you serve you ooze with judgement and condemnation and it is icky. leave me alone..which is not an angry statement it is an assertive one…learn the difference please…you sick fuck…who are you to judge me.
And God is pleased with your profanity? Following God properly should give you peace, not lead you to cursing. I truly wish you the peace in Christ that I have known all my life.
Why don’t you leave me alone what does YOUR GOD say about that? LEAVE ME ALONE…I WANT YOU TO STOP…PLEASE…god is that imbred in catholic priests that they do not get STOP LEAVE ME ALONE? Please i beg you no more comments…
OK. Have a nice day.
A couple things:
First, typing a message all in caps is the written equivalent of shouting. Really loud. So obviously, everyone is going to assume you were angry. Don’t type all in caps if you don’t want people to think you’re angry.
Second, you keep saying that none of us can judge you. Well, if you do not claim to be a Christian than you are correct. Jesus in at least three occasions tells people to judge, or that they have judged correctly. Paul specifically commands us to judge those inside the church. In fact, he chastises the Corinthian church for not competently judging themselves… more than once. Also, the writer of Hebrews declares that scripture is to be a judge, a standard, between right and wrong. James writes that those who claim to be teachers must be judged by a higher standard. Jude says we will all judge with Christ when He returns. When you look at the context of the quote you are throwing around, and when you look at the weight of scripture on the subject, it is clear to everyone that you are abusing it to suit your own purposes.
Third, to call someone a “sick fuck” and then turn around and demand they not judge you is the height of hypocrisy.
Finally, You keep asking people to leave you alone. Fine. Stop commenting on my board. It isn’t your blog, it isn’t your forum that all these comments are on. Simply don’t show up and it will stop. Now, like I said I don’t want you to leave, but you don’t need to complain about people tormenting you here when you’ve entered into this forum. It is kind of like stepping into a boxing ring and then complaining because the other guy is punching you. Like I have said before, I am all for healthy discussion and debate. But let’s please keep it healthy.
I didn’t realize my simple comment about Jesus loving me would create such a chaotic turmoil. Could be why homosexuals have such a problem with “jesus” and “man’.
PS THE ALL CAPS CAN BE JUST THAT…ALL CAPS… 😀
I’m sorry about comment above. I realize it is not okay to voice opinions that do not necessary agree with you. So I won’t be back. I believe God has unconditional acceptance and me AND my chosen lifestyle and I also believe no other human being can say differently about that. I hope you find a peaceful, loving, non legalistic/dogmatic God.
No, please. I love your questions and comments. They are real. They are valid. If everybody agreed with me all the time this world would be a very boring place and we would all be wrong more often than not. Disagreements bring better understanding. They force us to stretch our minds. I am glad and grateful for your courage to post on here your doubts and disagreements.
That is the point BJ I HAVE NO DOUBT MY GOD IS LOVE AND DOESN’T JUDGE ME BECAUSE I DON’T AGREE WITH SOMETHING WRITTEN IN A BOOK A/K/A THE BIBLE….
I am very concerned with the normalization of homosexuality, not because I consider it a sin, I don’t believe in sin, per se, I just think that the normalization of homosexuality will be very detrimental both to society as a whole as well as to the individuals involved. There’s a big difference in not castigating homosexuals (for what they do in private) and accepting homosexuality as “normal.” I think we have a deep psychological need to accept (and even celebrate) who we are biologically. It serves no good purpose to ignore reality and to go against nature in such a crucial part of our existence. And no, I don’t buy the argument that homosexuals are born that way. I think it can happen, but it is rare, and that those rare individuals who are born that way have the physical traits of the opposite gender as well. No, these big burly guys are NOT born homosexuals.
I grew up in a big city, and I have had many kinds of friends, including homosexuals of both genders. I have never had a problem with homosexuals or with homosexuality until lately. So it is not homosexuality as such that I have a problem with, I couldn’t care less what people do in private. It is the normalization of homosexuality and the acceptance of it as a perfectly acceptable way of life that I have a problem with. And is the media showing the truth of how homosexuality affects people, particularly men? No, it is not. It is showing a very cleaned-up, glamorized, boy-next-door version of it. And as more and more of our sons and daughters get more and more caught up in it, then the more we will have to accept it in order to be able to live with it.
This was a very wonderfully worded message. I pray that God’s Holy Spirit will also develop within me the gift of expressing myself with such grace, sincerity, and meekness. I like that you represented God’s love truthfully in responding to all of the comments that were made. It’s a very sensitive issue and a much avoided topic but you presented it well and I pray that it blesses all who read it.
God is love, but His love also holds us accountable.
And it is His very love that repeatedly warns us of both the earthly and eternal consequences of our actions. He makes it very clear in His Word so that there is no excuse when all is said and done and we must stand before Him.
I’m holding fast my crown and I refuse to let the current culture, or the lies of the enemy snatch my crown away. I refuse to give into fleshly desires and the passing pleasures of this life.
It is my sincere desire that others will be freed by God’s Word and His truth to live holy and set apart lives that shine brightly for Him.
I have really enjoyed reading all this. Our church has recently just went through facing homosexuality head on and we prayed through the situation and God had His own way with it. It is such a tough subject. I often thought how do we approach it with God’s love and grace but also with embracing the truth we know. Not sure if I know the answer still. Thank you for your blog.
I think you said it very well here, addressing this issue. It was once something never spoken about, then tolerated, now not only accepted but more and more these days thought of as the norm for our society, but the Bible speaks plainly that what was sin then is sin now, and nothing in God’s eyes is ever meant to be changed, misconstrued or glossed over in God’s word. The good news is that one can change and turn their life around, and begin to live according to God’s will for them. The choice is theirs.
Sorry – scripture is not any authority. There is no basis for accepting any of the holy books as having any validity. Their very inception, editing and use was and has been political. The Bible has as much authority as any other historical document – some good bits – some bad bits
Well, if Scripture has no authority, why are you bothering to post on this blog? This blog addresses those who do recognize the authority of Scripture. Or are you just being a heckler?
May I ask you, if Scripture has no authority, what has authority for you? What is your ultimate source of truth by which you order your life?
Hello,
Can i reblog this?
Cheers
Sure.
Years ago when I was taking a course in literature, I quickly realized that not everyone reads the same words and understands them the same way. An obvious example was Rocking Horse Winner by D.H. Lawrence. Many students looked at who the author was and immediately saw symbolism for sex and money throughout the story. I saw an incredible insecurity in the central character of the story played out in a somewhat bizarre way that may or may not have had sexual overtones. The sexual interpretation, to me, didn’t fit because it made the story seem disjointed.
Another was a story and play by Rod Serling about a young employee being groomed for a senior position by an older mentor. The mentor, throughout the process knows that that position is his and that after training he will be fired, just as happened when he got his job. To me, the story seemed a bit trite because I didn’t really care about the characters as they were presented. Then it struck me that there was something much deeper that I had missed, and I could hardly contain my enthusiasm for having seen it. Later, I saw an interview with Serling about this very story, and nope, all he had intended was the trite story on the surface — no depth.
Now we come to the Bible, which I first read when I was twelve. It never occurred to me back then that, as usual, I saw something quite different from many people. Consider Genesis 2:6 — “But there went up a mist from the earth, and watered the whole face of the ground.” Now read it in context and answer the question “When did it first rain?” The answer given in many (if not most) seminaries surprised me, especially considering the classical interpretation of the “separation of the waters”.
From a modern point of view, all of Genesis 19 seemed a bit askew to me. Particularly Genesis 19:30-36, which, even back then, seemed to be blaming incest on Lot’s daughters. The story is even physiologically inconsistent, but this may just be another of God’s miracles. Be this as it may, I was eventually forced into a metaphorical interpretation of much of the Bible because of repeated instances that are, as Catholics like to put it, “Holy Mysteries”.
I’m glad you are satisfied with how you see the Bible and I like your format for interpretation. I hope you remain happy with what you find.
So many take scripture and twist it, but Gods words stands true on this subject which he destroyed a whole city (Sodom and Gomorrah) over its choice. We cannot think we could populate the earth with two of the same sex and basically that is what God has said when we read a man should leave his mother and father and cleave to his wife……… N OT another man! God Bless You
Julia
Sodom and Gomorrah were destroyed because they acted too much like republicans.
Now this was the sin of your sister Sodom: She and her daughters were arrogant, overfed and unconcerned; they did not help the poor and needy. They were haughty and did detestable things before me. Therefore I did away with them as you have seen. – Ezekiel 16:49-50
That crack about Republicans was uncharitable and uncalled for.
Homosexuality was not the sole reason sodom and gomorrah was destroyed, but as read in Genesis 19:4-8 it was a part of that city as the men came to Lots door for sodomy reasons and Lot in turn offered his daughters and told them not to do so wickedly. God Bless You.
Julia
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You can actually read in more depth with regards to some of the other nasty, decadent deeds the folks of Sodom and Gomorrah got up in the book of Jasher, a book that the institutional church beast attempts to state “is not part of cannon”. This is a straight lie, church beast clergy simply want to control their flocks, they do not want their congregations thinking and reasoning for themselves as this could result in church leadership being rendered vestigial.
Homosexuality is a dysfunctional, decadent, reprobate, piece of trash lifestyle of no profit. Clergy have begun to preach a wishy washy doctrine in relation to homosexuality, most so called “christians” of this modern day refuse to stand strong on this topic either.
Back in the day homosexuals at least knew that their lifestyle was not acceptable in the eyes of the Most High, however with the questionable church leadership of 2015, the homosexual has now been lead to believe that he/she does not have to change. Err, new flash, since the scriptures state that believers are to be conformed to the image of Christ then it stands to reason that homosexuality would have to be purged out of one’s life.
By the way, I am still waiting for homosexuals and their advocates to list one benefit that homosexuality as a lifestyle brings to a community or a society, I’ll wait.
Thank you for your insights.
I’m curious, which “book of Jasher” are you referring to. There’s the forgery created in the mid eighteenth century, then there’s the Sephir haYashar which was first printed in Naples in the mid sixteenth century and which even Hebrew scholars do not accept as part of their cannon. There’s also a dozen rabbinical commentaries that go by that name but none date back much more than a thousand years. Considering that “The Book of Jasher” is more properly translated as “The Book of the Upright”, it is no surprise that there are many religious texts with the name. But which one do you believe the “evil church” has stamped out to keep its flocks under control?
I will agree that the act of homosexuality is a sin. As is lying, stealing, lust, and hatred. No one who willfully continues to live in a lifestyle of sin, any sin, will get to heaven. To call any sin good makes it all that much harder to break free from it. We are to be conformed to the image of Christ and, forgive the cliche’, but that image is clearly shown as loving the sinner while hating the sin. Is this not what Jesus did? Was he not a friend of sinners? I am grateful He was, and I want to be just like Him.
This is an excellent response. It is refreshing to find someone else saying what we as Catholics have been saying repeatedly.
As regards the Book of Yasher, are you also referring to the long-lost document mentioned in Joshua and II Samuel? That text has never been found.
The book of Jasher that I am referring contains 91 chapters. If this is the version that you are designating as a “forgery”, then I would at least hope you have drawn this conclusion from actually reading the material yourself. If not then you are behaving in exactly the manner that I mentioned before, where most modern day believers has lost the ability to think and to reason for themselves and instead expect their pastors, theologians, biblical historians, reverends, evangelists, bishops etc to carry out their thinking and reasoning processes for them.
Having personally read all 91 chapters myself, I do not see a problem with the book at all, I have also determined the same conclusions when it comes down to the Apocrypha, The Book Of Enoch and The Book of Jubilees, yet again from personal reading. Are you aware that many of these so called “scholars and experts” throughout time have drawn their conclusions solely based upon their own personal preferences and not upon any problematic and contradictory texts?
Now, you complained in your post about church leadership deflecting whenever the subject of homosexuality is raised, and rightly so. Yet here you are committing the very same transgression that you cascaded them for. No, this particular post is not in relation to lying, stealing, lust, hatred or any other sins, this post is expressly dealing with the sin of homosexuality and this is exactly what I commented on. You must be consistent in your approach sir, a wavering, wishy washy standing is not acceptable to Christ or the Most High.
As I stated before, those “friends” who interacted with Christ when he was on earth still knew that they would have to change and remove dysfunction from their lives in order to be accepted by him and thus enter into the kingdom of the Most High, in like manner when those involved in sin interact with believers, they ought to feel the same way. The problem is today this is not the case, the institutional church beast has carefully crafted things to go in this direction and this is precisely why the Most High is pulling down these churches and raising up the individual, the person seen as a “nobody” in its stead.
The churches of today are simply well kept monuments of failure, reprobation and decadence, they serve no real purpose other than to bottleneck believers into positions to where they can be controlled and manipulated. In turn many believers plough huge amounts of cash into the pockets of clergy leadership believing that they are “men and women of God” who have their best interests at heart, nothing could be further from the truth.
By the way, I am still looking for the schematics and the blueprints within the scriptures on how these churches operate, I cannot seem to find them.
Hello my friend. You say you are looking for a “blueprint” within the Scriptures on how these churches operate. Let me help: It is clear that Jesus intended to create a church. Read Matthew 16:18: …and upon this rock I will build my church.” Later in Matthew 18:15-20, Jesus states:”if [your brother who sins] refuses to listen to [witnesses], tell the church. If he refuses to listen even to the church, then treat him as you would a Gentile or a tax collector.” Finally the entire Acts of the Apostles spells out how the Church developed under the authority of the apostles. Pay special attention to Acts 15, the whole question about whether or not Gentile converts needed to become Jewish in order to follow Christ. There was a difference of opinion among the members, and they gathered in Jerusalem to discuss the matter. When they reached their conclusion, the apostles sent out a strong, authoritative statement to the church as to what they were commanded to believe and do. This clearly shows order and a plan of structure by the apostles, who were the ones given the authority by Jesus to make such decisions and bring His message of salvation to the ends of the earth. This is the way the Church has worked since then. God bless you, my friend.
Appreciated for the response. Perhaps I didn’t make myself clear enough, what I was stating was the fact that how these modern day churches operate from day to day regardless of the denomination is nothing in comparison to how the early church was functioning in the book of Acts.
The church that operated in the book of Acts did not involve the bread and circus, tom foolery, minstrel show, greedy man theatrics that we see commonly taking place within these modern day constructions of decadence.
In the book of Acts, the people came together to discuss various issues, they met the needs of the poor and they discussed with each other how the Most High was moving in their lives. There was no singing, no dancing about, there was no collection of money, the gathering was not the main focus, nor were the leaders, everybody worked and lead their own lives.
Fast forward to today and these modern churches have simply turned into entertainment centers and so called “church leadership” have rendered themselves to be physicians of no value.
All across the denominational board practically none of these churches dig deep into their pockets to genuinely help the poor. A homeless person for example will be turned away from the church building and told to go elsewhere before they will be offered any help.
Obviously this does not apply to every church, however it is the overwhelming majority who operate under this stingy and selfish fashion. One thing that is important to remember is that the church is the people, it is not the church building, it is not church leadership, it is not the singing, it is not the rituals etc.
As far as it still stands the schedulised, regimented, configured ways in which these churches operate today is nowhere to be found within the scriptures, I have posed this problem to many other folks and they have yet to demonstrate otherwise.
Again, this is exactly why the Most High is going to pull down all of these modern day churches and reduce them to piles of ashes and rubble, they have deviated from the original path, they are now operating under their own agendas and are feeding the flocks with disinformation and lies in order to keep their flocks centralised and thus under their control. The acceptance of homosexuality is just one of many examples of the incredible derailment that the institutional church has suffered.
Your point is well taken. I am glad you noted that not all denominations of Christianity are guilty of what you lament. My suggestion would be to find one that is teaching what you believe is the truth and is living it out. We’re out there. Just come and see.
“In the book of Acts, the people came together to discuss various issues, they met the needs of the poor and they discussed with each other how the Most High was moving in their lives.”
In the book of Acts the church devoted themselves to the apostles teaching, and to fellowship, and to sharing in meals and to prayer. All the believers met together in one place and shared everything they had. They worshiped together at the Temple each day, met in homes for the Lord’s Supper, and shared their meals with great joy and generosity all the while praising God and enjoying the goodwill of all the people. Each day the Lord added to their fellowship those who were being saved.
“There was no singing,”
Hogwash. There was singing in the Old Testament. Singing in Revelation. And singing at all points between. Paul commands the churches to sing in Ephesians and Colossians. He did so Himself in jail with Silas. The kenosis in Philippians 2 is believed to be an early church hymn. The books of Romans, Hebrews, James, and 1 Corinthians all mention singing. But most importantly of all, Jesus sang a hymn with his disciples before ascending to the Mount of Olives.
“There was no singing, no dancing about,”
Granted, dancing is only mentioned twice in the New Testament, but the second of those is at the rejoicing of return of the Prodigal Son. Considering this, and that dancing was a common part of Jewish culture, and that the first Church hymnbook would have been the Psalms with their many injunctions toward dancing, I would say the weight of evidence is in the favor of dancing in the early church.
“There was no singing, no dancing about, there was no collection of money,”
Hogwash. Not only is it interspersed throughout the early church, Paul devoted an entire chapter to it in his second book to Corinth.
“the gathering was not the main focus,”
Again, the early church was marked as a gathering church. All the believers met together in one place (Acts 2:44) The gathered daily at the Temple (2:46) Hebrews specifically warns against neglecting the gathering of the assembly (10:25). Over and over again we see the church gathering. Without community, there is no church.
“nor were the leaders, everybody worked and lead their own lives”
Yes, everybody was responsible for their own actions. But when there was a dispute, it was brought to the apostles for resolution. Peter gives commands in his letters for the leaders to diligently guard their flocks. Paul gives guidelines for appointing leadership in his pastoral epistles. In a sense, all the epistles were directives from God, through the apostles, for the church. No, everybody couldn’t just worship as they saw fit. That’s idolatry and if that was what you were implying by this, you’re dead wrong. Leadership is ordained by God (although not every leader is godly and should be followed)
“All across the denominational board practically none of these churches dig deep into their pockets to genuinely help the poor.”
I’m going to provide a link:
https://www.questia.com/library/journal/1G1-110221097/religious-faith-and-charitable-giving
That study backs what I am about to say. Those who regularly (at least weekly) attend a church service are far, far more likely to give both in money and time to needs when they arise, both local and global. The churches you condemn are the single greatest breeding ground of givers in our world.
“As far as it still stands the schedulised, regimented, configured ways in which these churches operate today is nowhere to be found within the scriptures”
No, it isn’t. It is also far different than the way churches met two hundred years ago… which is far different than the way churches met five hundred years ago… which is far different from the way churches met during the dark ages, and so on and so forth. Biblical principles must remain the same throughout time but how those principles are fleshed out adapts with changes in time and culture. This is healthy. This is good.
Your first paragraph response is actually proving my point, the folks then came together to fulfil meaningful purposes, unlike the churches of today which again I will refer to as bread and circus, monkey, buffoon fest entertainment centers which serve absolutely no purpose to not only the people who attend them but also to the communities that they reside in.
The issue with the singing is that it is not supposed to be set out and configured into a ritual, this is exactly what the churches of today do, no matter what flavour of church you choose. It is meant to be spontaneous and random, this way the praise is genuine and truly from the heart. Lets not deal with speculation here, I am going to have to dismissal your claim on Philippians 2. The mention of singing in no wise justifies the showbiz nonsense that is taking place within these modern day tumbling temples.
The information that you have given pertaining to dancing I also must dismiss because your references have nothing to do with the church and how it ought to operate.
In relation to collecting money, perhaps I should have expounded on my position, I was referring to greedy clergy members and so called “church leadership” collecting money for themselves and not giving anything back to the people, this is yet again the pervasive standard across the board, from the Roman Catholic Church, the Anglican church, the Baptist church to the Pentecostal joke of a denomination, they all use the same “give your money to us in order to receive from God” tactical play book.
Again, as I stated before, in Acts they came together for meaningful purposes, today people come together simply to be entertained by the jester of the king’s court, the circus clown who is known under several different titles, pastor, evangelist, reverend, bishop, minister, deacon, father and whatever other titles you wish to insert here. This replicant church that exists today is not what Christ established upon himself.
See, you can easily point to the scriptures and what these churches ought to be doing, however the problem is that they are NOT doing what they are supposed to be doing, they have completely derailed from the original path, I personally would step out further and state that they are actually works of Satan which have been successfully installed and set up to appear as if they are of Christ.
Sir, churches are giving very little to anybody, you ought to conduct some actual boots on the ground research as I do instead of relying on links and rumours. Churches of today put absolutely nothing into the local community, you have churches on every corner yet the communities these churches reside in are in complete and utter ruin. How can you have homeless people sleeping outside the very establishments that you claim are helping folks locally and globally? Where is this “help” sir?
It is the same situation everywhere I travel in the world, a well kept monument of failure will be residing in a community that resembles a war zone and yet again you will see homeless people sleeping and begging for money outside of the very establishments that are supposed to be a sanctuary to these same desperate people.
My final point, exactly, the modern day configuration and regimentation of these churches in 2015 is nowhere to be found in the bible, I see this as a huge issue and a major red flag. This is the main reason why I refuse to step into any of these churches, it is not a case of simple variations, no, these modern day constructions of decadence and mockery have nothing to do with Christ and the Most High, they are simply carrying out their own selfish, greedy and dark works all the while using Christ, the Most High and the scriptures to blind sight and sucker the vulnerable and the impressionable, they have strayed from the beaten path and are deep into forging paths of their own.
The book of Jasher you are referring to did not exist prior to the sixteenth century. Lets take the most liberal of estimates and say that the last of the New Testament was written in the late second century. Even by the most generous of standards Pseudo-Jasher was written over a milennia too late to be included in the canon. Even with no other standards, it’s out. What is in the text might be fine. It just is not Bible.
Pseudo Jasher according to who exactly? 16th century draft again according to who and based upon what evidence? Not part of the bible according to who? I’ll remind you that the Apocrypha was part of the bible up until the 1700s where is was subsequently removed yet again because of the bias and personal preferences of those claiming to be authorities over the bible and men of God. The book of Jasher is referenced to twice in the scriptures, once in Joshua 10:13 and the other time in 2 Samuel 1:18, seems logical to me that Joshua and Samuel would not make reference to something that was not of value neither something that was not to be read and considered important.
You rely so heavily upon scholars, their “works” and their opinions, yet Christ himself revealed something completely different. Luke 10:21 reads:
10:21 In that hour Jesus rejoiced in spirit, and said, I thank thee, O Father, Lord of heaven and earth, that thou hast hid these things from the wise and prudent, and hast revealed them unto babes: even so, Father; for so it seemed good in thy sight.
The Most High is simply not dealing with those who have positioned and set themselves up as so called “authorities” over the scriptures, he ia dealing with the layman, those who are viewed as nobodies, individuals as it is these souls who have not been contaminated with preferential perspectives based upon personal biases.
Therefore, since we have two old testament books referring to Jasher which were drafted up way before the 16th century, if it is not the book containing 91 chapters that these two fellows were referring to, then where is it?
By the way when somebody makes reference to another person’s work, it is typically because it also ought to read and viewed as equally as important.
The Book of Yasher referred to in the scriptures has been lost for millennia. Scholars have proven that the so called English translations from the Hebrew are in fact forgeries. There was no Hebrew text to translate from. If you Google the Book of Yasher, you will find ample evidence to prove that none of the so-called translations or texts is the actual text that was mentioned in the Old Testament.
As regards your attack on churches, yes I am sure that your condemnation is spot on in some cases. I have often questioned the authenticity of some so-called TV evangelists and some denominations. But to dismiss all churches as in utter ruin and the works of Satan is not fair. There are many denominations of Christianity who are in fact doing remarkable work in social areas and are following the command of Jesus in a commendable manner. There are several who have resisted the temptation to go along with what is popular and have maintained the truth revealed by Christ. You might be projecting your disdain at some communities upon us all. No denomination is perfect; we are not gatherings of saints but of sinners trying to become saints. The weaknesses and sins of any individuals do not in themselves constitute a fraudulent denomination; they merely demonstrate that even the leaders of churches are sinners. When a denomination’s teachings have clearly strayed from the truth revealed by Christ for the sole purpose of popularity or the personal aggrandizement of its leader, then I would be more condemning. But I would caution anyone not to dismiss churches outright because they are not perfect nor because they have not settled all the causes of human suffering. That is an ongoing process that we will never completely settle this side of heaven.
Apologies for the late response, I never received a notification that you responded to me. See, exactly in the same manner as the host of this blog here you are relying upon the same scholars whom Christ has written off. Despite the fact that Christ stated the Father is not revealing information to them, you still wish to uphold them as pillars and reliable sources, thus you have begun to place the words of men over the words of the Son of the Most High, this is extremely problematic at the least.
You made references to Google yet the information therein pertaining to Jasher being a “forgery” is coming from these very same scholars whom Christ and the Most High have nothing to do with. It would be evident that the heavenly powers would not involve themselves with so called “biblical authorities” as their opinions, positions and conclusions are dictated and directed by money and not by the truth.
The churches that you make reference to carrying out remarkable works are very few and far between, the vast majority of churches in 2015 are operating under their own curriculums. Your title of “father” is a prime example of derailment, Christ stated that the spiritual title of “father” was only supposed to be used in reference to the Most High, yet the Roman Catholic church especially freely bestows this title upon its clergy leadership, completely ignoring the words of Christ, this yet again is extremely problematic.
The problem is the clergy leadership throughout all denominations, they involve themselves in all manner of decadent practises in the dark behind closed doors yet all the while feigning themselves to be upstanding leaders and representatives of the kingdom of the Most High in the public domain. The Most High is not looking for clean, pristine, spotless individuals, he requires honesty, responsibility and accountability, this is the perfection he seeks from those who claim to believe in him.
The Most High has declared war upon the shepherds ie those who have placed themselves in leadership positions, he talks about this in Ezekiel 34, he also mentions that fact that these leaders will be held responsible for what they have done to the flocks. This is why the Most High is bringing down these churches as when he really begins to open up the can of judgement upon them, I wouldn’t want to be anywhere near one of these monuments of perpetual failure and decadence.
The great works that many of these churches brag about are miniscule when compared to the evil deeds and the mischief that these organisations prefer to run towards. The Most High’s words to you, your church and the rest of these pillars of disgrace is this, prepare war.
Hello my friend.
You say that Catholics calling their priests “Father” violates Jesus command to “call no man father.” What do you call your male parent? Do you not call him your father? Does that mean you are disobeying Jesus? When the Lord Jesus gave that teaching, he was not saying that, “down the line, Catholics will start calling their priests ‘father’ and I’m telling you from now that this is wrong.” How silly. No, what he was saying was not to give authority to anyone that rightly belongs to God.
If I may be so bold as to say, when I read your scathing condemnation of the vast majority of churches, I sense that you are taking your anger against one or two communities which is perhaps valid and are guilty of condemning the vast majority of churches of practicing the same sins without any justification for doing so. It’s like saying “all lawyers are crooked liars!” Yes, some are. But it is hardly fair to condemn all lawyers because of the sins of a few. Similarly, it is not fair to condemn all churches because some have sinned. Remember also that churches are not gatherings of saints but of sinners trying to become saints.
It seems to me that you have been hurt somewhere by someone in a church community. My suggestion would be to isolate the object of your anger and deal with it prayerfully before God rather than vent anger universally at all churches. It will give you more peace, and may even help you to find a community that is sincere that can offer you healing from whatever is bothering you.
Peace my friend!
Now you are being completely disingenuous sir, you should know full well that when Christ handed down that commandment he was not referring to the position of an earthly parent but was actually conversing on positions of leadership in terms of faith and spirituality. This is clear because he informed his disciples in no uncertain terms to also steer clear of other authoritative titles such as Rabbi and master, this further concludes the relevance of the commandment.
Therefore yes, the Roman Catholic Church is in direct violation of the commandment of Christ not to bestow one’s self with titles of authority. Of course this is not the only commandment that the Roman Catholic Church is in breech of but that is a subject for another time. Christ knew that authoritative titles would automatically shift the focus away from the Most High and onto the man/woman concerned, in 2015 this is an occurrence that now takes place throughout all denominations, why, because as I have stated before, the majority of churches in existence today operate under their own curriculums and really do not give two hoots about the Most High, his son Christ or their congregation members.
As Christ clearly stated, “ye shall know them by their fruits”. Therefore I observe the “actions” of a person or an organisation as opposed to their words. You can talk as much as you want, however as long as you continue use the title of “father”, you remain in breach of a fundamental instruction, I never stated this, Christ did. If you have a problem with the commandment then take up your issue with him.
The vast majority of churches does not equate to “all”. There is not one point in any of the comments that I have made where I have stated that ALL churches have derailed and gone their own way, though I still would state that the overwhelming majority of them currently stand as temples of reprobation and debauchery.
Your claim of maltreatment against me by a church community does not alter a thing. Your response here is yet another clear illustration of the fact that clergy leadership has no real interest in remedying the serious underlying problems within its quarters, on the contrary, the institutional church leadership prefers to perpetuate the decadency and skull duggery aswell as initiate and encourage its own parishioners to partake in the same bottom barrel, outlandish and dark side behaviours.
Verbs2015……………You are absolutely correct in your response to father Carrozza that when referring to our father (earthly) is not with authority of God our heavenly Father whom we fear and revere, and to call anyone head of a ministry Fathers is going against our Fathers commandment for mere man. “Let me not, I pray you, accept any man’s person, neither let me give flattering titles unto man. For I know not to give flattering titles;in so doing my makervwould soon take me away”.(Job 32:21,22).Keep on in the ministry you have been called to.God Bless Your work in Him.
http://precioussheepofrenown.com/2013/06/27/the-true-church-of-christ/
http://precioussheepofrenown.com/13/12/16/god-of-the-daily-church/
Julia
Hello my friend.
You contradict yourself in your discussion about the use of the term “father.” Jesus did not in fact say, “don’t call your religious leader “father”. He in fact said, “Do not call anyone on earth your father.” That also includes male parents. He also said, “do not be called teachers.” But then St. Paul said in 2 Timothy 1:11: …”but now has been revealed by the appearing of our Savior Christ Jesus, who abolished death and brought life and immortality to light through the gospel, for which I was appointed a preacher and an apostle and a teacher.” So if the Catholic Church is guilty of sinning by calling priests “father”, then so was St. Paul for calling himself a teacher of the Gospel. No, I repeat my point from before: Jesus was not forbidding calling priests “Father”. Rather, he was making a point about not giving authority to anyone on earth that properly belongs to God. Any attempt at other interpretations is a silly excursion into semantics.
If “by their fruits you shall know them” – and I agree 100% – then just take a look at what we do here at St. Ann’s Parish in Yonkers:
* We just raised over $51,000 to support the charitable activities of the Archdiocese of New York, and we do that every year.
* This past Advent, we raised over $8,000 to build homes for poor families in Haiti.
* We routinely come to the assistance of poor families in our parish.
* Our Bereavement Ministry gives free counseling to those who have lost a loved one
* We visit our homebound parishioners on a regular basis
* We offer free counseling and guidance, including spiritual direction, to anyone who asks for it.
* We are firm in our commitment to Christ and His teachings, which we offer in faithful worship, theologically sound and inspiring homilies, and solid academic and religious training of our children in our grammar school and religious education program.
*This past year we baptized and/or welcomed into full communion with the Catholic Church 17 adults at the Easter Vigil, and in a parish of only 600 people, that is a phenomenal number!
*Last weekend, at a celebration for the 25th anniversary of my ordination to the priesthood, 280 people came and thanked me for the gift of the presence of Christ I made in their lives over the years, and several people, including a few teenagers, made speeches to the same effect, of how I have brought them to Christ,
I could go on, but I think you get the point. I can assure you that the faith Jesus Christ revealed to the apostles and commanded them to bring to the ends of the earth is very well and alive here in St. Ann’s Catholic parish, as it is in scores of other Catholic parishes. If you’re upset by what you see around you and don;’t find Christ in other denominations, I can assure you you will find him here. Come on in! The door is always open to you!
Your lack of understanding and questionable diligence concerning the scriptures is incredible, it baffles me how a supposed “man of the cloth” can so easily stumble and fail to grasp such a simple concept. Matthew 23:1-12 is dealing with leadership, this is abundantly clear. Christ was informing his followers not to follow after the works of the Scribes and the Pharisees(who were LEADERS), one of their ways which involved bestowing honorary, noble and authoritative titles upon one’s self. I would strongly suggest that you read those scriptures again.
The Most High Father is a Spirit, therefore it would make sense that Christ was referring to avoid using the term “father ” when referring to men in a spiritual sense, this is not rocket science, we are still at the shallow end of the pool here.
Even if what you are saying is true and we suppose for argument sake that he was also referring to the male parent position, you still have no viable and justifiable excuse for using that title, none whatsoever. The scripture you listed in your attempt to justify your position still does not hold any water because a teacher is merely passing down information as opposed to rabbis, masters and fathers who lord over and control their followers.
Besides, Christ did not place the titles of “teacher” and “preacher” upon the exclusion list, he took particular issue with the titles of “rabbi”, “father” and “master”, these are the titles that he stated must not be used. All this being said, you are still not justified in your use of the term, Christ stated not to use the term “father” yet the Catholic Church does otherwise. Exactly what I stated before, ignoring the words of Christ and doing your own things, your hypocrisy is simply astonishing to behold.
In relation to the “good deeds” that you have listed, these pale in comparison to the overall evil, destruction and the degeneracy that the Roman Catholic Church has wrought upon this entire planet. Money raised for a cause does not automatically mean that the money was utilised for that same cause. Charities are where some of the biggest scams and cons take place.
I had to scratch my head pertaining to your local church beast branch raising money to build homes for families in Haiti as it is the Catholic church that has put that country in the decadent state that it now resides in to begin with. Thus has the Roman Catholic Church also done the same to the whole of South America aswell as some of the islands in the Caribbean.
I am well aware of home visits by Catholic clergy leadership, however these interactions are simply to ensure that their parishioners remain in the same stagnant position of spiritual death. I am in no wise fooled by the public user friendly edicts put out by the Catholic Church, again I examine and scrutinise the overall impact of an organisation upon its followers.
Meanwhile despite your good Samaritan actions the local community that surrounds your particular monument of failure overall still continues to trundle down the toilet.
In order to find Christ you must leave the church(regardless of the denomination) and walk as an individual, this way the Most High can interact with and make changes to your life without any outside interference or interlopers obstructing the process via conflicting messages and misleading instructions.
Again, you cannot claim to be a follower of Christ yet do exactly the opposite of what you have been instructed. If you claim to believe in Christ then the first thing you ought to do is discard of the title “father”.
Seeing as the Most High is currently in the process of deconstructing the vast majority of modern day churches, to attend one of these condemned cathedrals at this point in time would simply be a fool’s errand. The Most High is a Spirit and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth. Buildings and clergy leadership are no longer requirements in order to connect with our heavenly Father.
Hello again my friend,
I don’t know what has caused your anger, but it is blinding you from the truth. No, I would vehemently reject your argument that any good the Catholic Church has done pales in comparison to the evil she has wrought. In fact, the truth is precisely the opposite. Yes, some Catholics have done wrong over the centuries, but if you read your history, you will see that the tremendous amount of good that Catholics have done over the past two thousand years dwarfs any evil. Your read of the evils of the Church are grossly exaggerated and are the result of your own prejudice against the Catholic Church and not any facts at all. The facts speak clearly in defense of the faith. Even secular people have pointed this out as well as non-Christians, such as Albert Einstein – no intellectual pygmy!
As for your constant misunderstanding of the term “Father,” it is I who am stupefied by your blindness to the obvious point Jesus was not making. Do you think for a moment Jesus was saying to the apostles, “1700 years from now, Catholics will begin the practice of calling their priests ‘father’, and I want to let you know from now that this is wrong.”? How ludicrous!
Let’s look carefully at what Jesus in fact said:
“Do not call anyone on earth your father; for One is your Father, He who is in heaven.” This was in the context of warning the people about the false pride of the Pharisees. He was warning against pride in leadership. I repeat what I have said before: he was NOT forbidding ministers to be called “father”, he was warning against giving authority to human leaders that rightfully belongs to God. He didn’t say, “don’t call your leaders “Father,” with a Capital “F”; he said “do not call anyone on earth your father – with a small “f”. To use this line to mean Jesus says not to call priests “father” is the same as to say you cannot call your male parent your father. You can’t have it both ways!
Jesus criticized Jewish leaders who love “the place of honor at feasts and the best seats in the synagogues, and salutations in the market places, and being called ‘rabbi’ by men” (Matt. 23:6–7). His admonition here is a response to the Pharisees’ proud hearts and their grasping after marks of status and prestige.
He was using hyperbole (exaggeration to make a point) to show the scribes and Pharisees how sinful and proud they were for not looking humbly to God as the source of all authority and fatherhood and teaching, and instead setting themselves up as the ultimate authorities, father figures, and teachers.
Christ used hyperbole often, for example when he declared, “If your right eye causes you to sin, pluck it out and throw it away; it is better that you lose one of your members than that your whole body be thrown into hell” (Matt. 5:29, cf. 18:9; Mark 9:47). Christ certainly did not intend this to be applied literally, for otherwise all Christians would be blind amputees! (cf. 1 John 1:8; 1 Tim. 1:15). We are all subject to “the lust of the flesh and the lust of the eyes and the pride of life” (1 John 2:16).
Since Jesus is demonstrably using hyperbole when he says not to call anyone our father—else we would not be able to refer to our earthly fathers as such—we must read his words carefully and with sensitivity to the presence of hyperbole if we wish to understand what he is saying.
Jesus is not forbidding us to call men “fathers” who actually are such—either literally or spiritually. To refer to such people as fathers is only to acknowledge the truth, and Jesus is not against that. He is warning people against inaccurately attributing fatherhood—or a particular kind or degree of fatherhood—to those who do not have it.
As the apostolic example shows, some individuals genuinely do have a spiritual fatherhood, meaning that they can be referred to as spiritual fathers. What must not be done is to confuse their form of spiritual paternity with that of God. Ultimately, God is our supreme protector, provider, and instructor. Correspondingly, it is wrong to view any individual other than God as having these roles.
Throughout the world, some people have been tempted to look upon religious leaders who are mere mortals as if they were an individual’s supreme source of spiritual instruction, nourishment, and protection. The tendency to turn mere men into “gurus” is worldwide.
This was also a temptation in the Jewish world of Jesus’ day, when famous rabbinical leaders, especially those who founded important schools, such as Hillel and Shammai, were highly exalted by their disciples. It is this elevation of an individual man—the formation of a “cult of personality” around him—of which Jesus is speaking when he warns against attributing to someone an undue role as master, father, or teacher. Jim Jones would be an ideal example of what Jesus was forbidding – one who makes himself the absolute leader of people’s lives rather than God.
He is not forbidding the perfunctory use of honorifics nor forbidding us to recognize that the person does have a role as a spiritual father and teacher. The example of his own apostles shows us that.
The New Testament is filled with examples of and references to spiritual father-son and father-child relationships. Many people are not aware just how common these are, so it is worth quoting some of them here.
Paul regularly referred to Timothy as his child: “Therefore I sent to you Timothy, my beloved and faithful child in the Lord, to remind you of my ways in Christ” (1 Cor. 4:17); “To Timothy, my true child in the faith: grace, mercy, and peace from God the Father and Christ Jesus our Lord” (1 Tim. 1:2); “To Timothy, my beloved child: Grace, mercy, and peace from God the Father and Christ Jesus our Lord” (2 Tim. 1:2).
He also referred to Timothy as his son: “This charge I commit to you, Timothy, my son, in accordance with the prophetic utterances which pointed to you, that inspired by them you may wage the good warfare” (1 Tim 1:18); “You then, my son, be strong in the grace that is in Christ Jesus” (2 Tim. 2:1); “But Timothy’s worth you know, how as a son with a father he has served with me in the gospel” (Phil. 2:22).
Paul also referred to other of his converts in this way: “To Titus, my true child in a common faith: grace and peace from God the Father and Christ Jesus our Savior” (Titus 1:4); “I appeal to you for my child, Onesimus, whose father I have become in my imprisonment” (Philem. 10). None of these men were Paul’s literal, biological sons. Rather, Paul is emphasizing his spiritual fatherhood with them. If Catholics sin in calling priests “father,” then so has St. Paul!
Perhaps the most pointed New Testament reference to the theology of the spiritual fatherhood of priests is Paul’s statement, “I do not write this to make you ashamed, but to admonish you as my beloved children. For though you have countless guides in Christ, you do not have many fathers. For I became your father in Christ Jesus through the gospel” (1 Cor. 4:14–15).
Peter followed the same custom, referring to Mark as his son: “She who is at Babylon, who is likewise chosen, sends you greetings; and so does my son Mark” (1 Pet. 5:13). The apostles sometimes referred to entire churches under their care as their children. Paul writes, “Here for the third time I am ready to come to you. And I will not be a burden, for I seek not what is yours but you; for children ought not to lay up for their parents, but parents for their children” (2 Cor. 12:14); and, “My little children, with whom I am again in travail until Christ be formed in you!” (Gal. 4:19).
John said, “My little children, I am writing this to you so that you may not sin; but if any one does sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous” (1 John 2:1); “No greater joy can I have than this, to hear that my children follow the truth” (3 John 4). In fact, John also addresses men in his congregations as “fathers” (1 John 2:13–14).
By referring to these people as their spiritual sons and spiritual children, Peter, Paul, and John imply their own roles as spiritual fathers. Since the Bible frequently speaks of this spiritual fatherhood, we Catholics acknowledge it and follow the custom of the apostles by calling priests “father.” Failure to acknowledge this is a failure to recognize and honor a great gift God has bestowed on the Church: the spiritual fatherhood of the priesthood.
Catholics know that as members of a parish, they have been committed to a priest’s spiritual care, thus they have great filial affection for priests and call them “father.” Priests, in turn, follow the apostles’ biblical example by referring to members of their flock as “my son” or “my child” (cf. Gal. 4:19; 1 Tim. 1:18; 2 Tim. 2:1; Philem. 10; 1 Pet. 5:13; 1 John 2:1; 3 John 4).
All of these passages were written under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit, and they express the infallibly recorded truth that Christ’s ministers do have a role as spiritual fathers. Jesus is not against acknowledging that. It is he who gave these men their role as spiritual fathers, and it is his Holy Spirit who recorded this role for us in the pages of Scripture. To acknowledge spiritual fatherhood is to acknowledge the truth, and no amount of anti-Catholic grumbling will change that fact.
My final admonition is to argue from a desire for true understanding, not from an angry thirst for proving evil where it doesn’t exist, which it seems to me that you have done. It would be better to figure out why you personally hate the Church as much as you seem to do and address that issue. Perhaps then we can have an intellectual discussion that is based on the desire for information and not for slinging insults and accusations of evil.
Peace, my son!
There is nothing wrong with being angry, as long as the anger is not irrational and is directed towards a worthy and righteous. How would you expect people to view and react an organisation that claims it follows the teaching of Christ on the one hand yet commits innumerable transgressions on the other? You can disagree all you want pertaining to the evils of the Roman Catholic church overshadowing the good, however all I need do is simply point to countries in which your church has a stronghold, further point towards the squalor and the degenerate conditions of those lands and my case is immediately proven beyond any doubt.
Burning people at the stake who did not concur with the Roman Catholic doctrines, interpretations and understandings of the scriptures, let us also not forget the indulgence tax that people could pay the Roman Catholic church in order to engage in a plethora of transgressions, I will not forget to mention the buggering and the sexual molestation of children, a ritual which still continues to this day within the lower depths of your “sanctuaries”. Horror stories of young girls going through forced abortions on site, many not surviving the ordeal, unborn children being slung across blood riddled floors like soda cans, piled up in corners for burial or cremation in secret, as are the young girls who perish during the abortion process. This is the true legacy of the Roman Catholic church, these are the real facts that you and your organisation would rather ignore.
This is why the Catholic church especially ventures to sets it self up in third world countries, as the access to children is far easier, seeing as there is little to no oversight clergy leaders practically have a free reign to carry out what darstadly deeds they choose under the guise of “charity”, “philanthropy” and “helping out the local community.”
Sister Charlotte goes into great detail about what she experienced within the Roman Catholic chambers of death, simply search on Youtube for Sister Charlotte Entire Testimony. She is not the only one to come forward and expose the skull duggery that the vast majority of Roman Catholic clergy partake in on the daily, there are many others with similar horrifying accounts. Again, as I stated before I examine the fruits of one’s actions, not the words. These are the fruits that the Roman Catholic church has produced and in many cases is still producing. The Roman Catholic church is the last organisation that would be nominated for bringing forth good works in the world.
The instruction from Christ was not to use authoritative titles, those of main concern being master, father and rabbi. I can read and understand the English perfect well. The problem here is not my understanding, the real problem here is your pride and your reputation. You are in a position where you must continually prove your worth and validity to the people around you, thus in the face of being proven wrong you must place your reputation and your pride in front of the truth in order to hold onto relevancy in the eyes of your parishioners. You additionally wish to avoid providing an explanation to them aswell as other folks as to why you are disobeying a direct commandment of Christ. The Scribes and the Pharisees were using these titles, Christ instructed us not to use them, however you and your organisation have decided otherwise, this is the long and short of the situation. Again, pride and exaltation automatically accompany a title such as “father” which is exactly why Christ goes on to say that “those who exalt themselves shall be abased”. Again, we are still at the shallow end of the pool here.
See, your institutional church beast folly will not fly with me, I have retained my own thinking and reasoning faculties, no pastors nor clergy leaders perform these functions on my behalf. Again, you continue to raise the issue of earthly father however this is clearly not the context of the instruction. Your earthly father position is simply a red herring, a distraction from the embarrassment of your error. In relation to your numerous examples of some of the apostles referring to those who they have brought into the faith as “sons” and “children”, what does this have to do with the clear instruction that we have been given by Christ not to use the title of “father” under a role of leadership? Being told not to refer to any man on the earth as father in terms of leadership additionally means that no man should be using the title, this is common sense.
Finally, it isn’t only the Catholic church that I have a problem with, the Catholic church is simply one part of the institutional church beast infrastructure, a behemoth that has set itself up in place of the original church that Christ founded. This is the structure that the Most High is currently at war with, the various denominations that we have today are founded upon this monolith of deception which has deliberately prevented believers from experiencing true growth in its quest to manipulate and control.
Hello my friend.
In your last post you have proven my point perfectly and totally discredited your argument. The “facts” you quote are deliberate over-exaggerations by Catholic enemies, mostly from England during here anti-Catholic period, which even modern historians accept. Yes, there were atrocities at times, but their numbers have been grossly inflated. For example, the estimated number of people put to death during the Spanish Inquisition is about 2,000. Over 80% of the people brought to trial during the Inquisition were exonerated, and the penalty for many was not death but censure. The Protestant reformers in northern Europe, however, put to death an estimated 250,000 witches by burning at the stake. And yet people look at Catholics as corrupt??
Yes their were some priests who abused children, but they accounted to less that 1% of the active priests in the USA, and we have since cleaned up our ranks to the point that new reports of verifiable abuse are next to non-existent. Do you know of any other organization that has cleaned house so effectively?
Your mention of Sister Charlotte as “proof” of Catholic atrocities betrays your gullibility. The story has been exposed as a fake!!! And in your anger and your desire to believe anything evil you possibly can about the Catholic Church, you swallowed the lie hook, line and sinker. Check this out:
Sean, over at “Sean’s Faith Website” has already done an excellent expose on this fake nun. I would just like to add some to his research.
Charlotte Keckler was a pseudonym used by a woman who traveled the country in the 60’s, 70’s and 80’s claiming to have “escaped” from a Carmelite Convent. However, she never names this convent, just that it is “foreign”. But in reading her story it is interesting to note that in this country everyone speaks English. England, possibly, but I was unable to locate any Carmelite convents in England. It could not be Canada because she states that part of her journey home was on a ship.
A “pastor” by the name of Reckart put up a website defending this one and giving his proof. His proof is her Social Security Death record:
Name Birth Death Last Residence Last Benefit SSN Issued Tools Order
Record?
CHARLOTTE KECKLER 12 Apr 1898 Sep 1983 94558 (Napa, Napa, CA) (none specified) 261-58-5764 Florida SS-5 Letter
Add Post-em
Search Ancestry.com Click here to order a copy of the original record
According to the Social Security Number Decoder, we know that this SSN was issued in Florida in 1951. “Sister” Charlotte’s testimony never mentions her living in Florida. That also raises the issue of where was she between 1898 and 1951? Turning to what we do know, thanks to Rootsweb, we can see her death record as well:
Results 1-1 of 1
Last Name First Name Middle Birth Date Mother Maiden Father Last Sex Birth Place Death Place Residence Death Date SSN Age Post-ems Order
Record
KECKLER CHARLOTTE EDNA 04/12/1898 TRIGGS
F IOWA NAPA
09/28/1983 261-58-5764 85 yrs Add Order a copy of the original certificate from RootsWeb.com
This gives us a little more info. But a search of the Iowa census at Heritage Quest does not reveal a Charlotte Keckler in Iowa at all in 1900, 1910 or 1920. Neither does it show her (alleged) brother John or sister Connie. So it appears the name she gave in death is as fictitious as her life. Add this to Sean’s research and it can safely be said this woman was a fraud.
Finally,you are correct in saying that anger is not always sinful. It is the righteous response to injustice. If we see a bunch of thugs beating up an old lady, we get angry, and that’s correct. Even Jesus got angry at the Pharisees, King Herod, even Peter. But as St. Paul says, “if you are angry, let it be without sin.” (Eph. 4:26). Anger becomes sinful when we get angry about things that we should not be angry about, or when we hold onto our anger and don’t let go of it, or when we seem to delight in being angry all the time. Anger blinds the eye to truth, and many evil figures in history did so much evil because they lived in anger, such as Hitler, Jim Jones, Osama Bin Ladin. Probably the best example one can give to the danger of acting out of anger is St. Paul, who before his conversion in anger was arresting followers of Jesus and putting some of them to death because of his zeal for what he thought was pleasing to God. After his conversion, his anger was turned to love, and he became the greatest evangelist the Church has ever known. So please do not justify your being angry all the time. Get angry at an injustice, but then get over the anger so that you can see clearly and make rational decisions. Decisions made in anger are never rational and we usually regret them later.
I wish you peace in Christ!
I
father Carrozza…………..Verbs 2015 has it correct that no man considered to be in the ministry of Christ would not be called Father, for we have but one Father in heaven and Job said it best not to have a title for one is not above another and God is not a respect or of persons….. “Let me not, I pray you, accept any man’s person, neither let me give flattering titles unto man. For I know not to give flattering titles; in so doing my maker would soon take me away”.(Job 32:21,22).
Julia
http://precioussheepofrenown.com/2013/06/27/the-true-church-of-christ/
http://precioussheepofrenown.com/2013/12/16/god-of-the-daily-church/
On the contrary sir, you have proven my point in confirming that the facts I stated are actually correct. You made mention of numbers, I never mentioned any figures, my point was to simply illustrate the fact that the Roman Catholic church has been involved in things that it should not have partaken in. Even if we take your over exaggeration claim as true, an over exaggeration still alludes to the fact that something took place. So I am correct via your own words that the Catholic church did indeed persecute and burn people at the stake for not subscribing to the edicts and the philosophies of the organisation.
Again, you made mention of the reformers, however the crimes of the Roman Catholic church are the subject of the discussion at the moment. The protestant reformers were and still are another division of the Institutional Church Beast Infrastructure, in the same manner as the Roman Catholic church. Making mention of the crimes of another division in no wise negates the iniquities that the Catholic church has and is still committing.
On the issue of child abuse, here you are on the one hand attempting to make the claim that such behaviour is a thing of the past, yet here we have your boss pope Francis mid last year admitting that the problem of pedophilia is “common and widespread throughout the church”. Here is a news article for you:
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2690575/Pope-Francis-admits-two-cent-Roman-Catholic-priests-paedophiles-interview-Italian-newspaper.html
To be honest I was going to deal with the discrediting of Sister Charlotte however with your own leader admitting that there is still a problem of child abuse(of course, this is not news to me, I always knew that the problem of child abuse would continue because this is part of the Roman Catholic church priest culture), there is no need for me to enter into that discussion.
Pope Francis will never remedy the problem because he is most probably involved in some of these acts of pedophilia himself in my personal opinion, this is simply part of the culture of the Roman Catholic church Priesthood, it has been this way for 100s of years since the conception of the Catholic church and nothing will change until the Most High brings about a swift recompense upon this part of the church beast system, this is soon to come.
Using strong words to describe wickedness and those who take part in it is not dwelling in anger, indeed rather you should now be focusing your sights upon those priests involved in such skull duggerous activities, some of whom I would suspect are in your very midst. For you to now know that these atrocities are still taking place and do nothing makes you an active participant and just as culpable as those who are directly involved in the wickedness.
Hello my friend.
It sounds to me like you are looking for a Church with no sinners. That only exists in heaven. A church is not a gathering of saints but of sinners trying to become saints. If you reject any group because someone once did something wrong, you’ll reject every group that has ever existed. Remember that Jesus came to save sinners, not to pat the righteous on the back. That’s what the Pharisees wanted, and Jesus blasted them for that.
By the way, your accusation of Pope Francis probably being involved in acts of pedophilia is slanderous and a serious accusation to make. You cannot make wild accusations without proof. Show me proof; otherwise, do you realize you could be arrested for slander? Do you think Jesus is pleased with that? Before you lecture me any further about what the Most High will do, I think you’d better knock yourself off your high horse, cut the sanctimonious condemnation of people you know nothing about, and begin to show the charity of Christ that is at the root of the Gospel, something which you seem to know nothing about. How dare you sit in condemnation of the Church and priests and claim that pedophilia is part of our culture! Did Jesus not say, “Do not judge and you will not be judged?” You don’t know me, yet you are accusing me of being a pedophile simply because some priests did this, therefore I must have done it too. There is no defense for such childish smears. I don’t know what you do for a living, but would you want to be judged by the acts of the worst examples of your profession? Are you willing to be accused of every sin someone in your profession commits and be told your profession is worthless and evil because of it? Shame on you. A true Christian knows better than that.
If you are convinced that the Church is evil, then why are you corresponding with me? Are you looking for answers, or are you just trying to fling mud? What do you think pleases Jesus? As you judge others, you will be judged by Christ, so please tread very carefully as you condemn so many people with one sweep of your blind brush. Your accusations against Pope Francis have made me lose all respect for you and for your opinions. I will be happy to continue conversing with you provided we are looking for mature dialogue and not sanctimonious condescension and blind insults.
Peace in Christ
Again, you are not reading my comments properly, my issue has never been with the real church which comprises of true believers, my issue has always been with this fraudulent monolithic structure which has set itself up under various denominational titles which is futhermore pretending to represent a sanctuary, a place of refuge and a place of worship established by the Most High, however nothing could be further from the truth.
With regards to Pope Francis, I gave you my own personal opinion as to what I believe Pope Francis might be engaging in behind closed doors, it is my opinion based upon the fact that pedophilia is part of the Roman Catholic priest culture and Francis being a priest means that he may very well be participating in the same acts of abuse. Just because he holds high rank in your eyes, this in no wise excludes him from the decadence of the Catholic priest culture. You hold this man in high esteem, I don’t.
Jesus Christ has nothing to do with Pope Francis nor the Roman Catholic church, if Christ were to land upon earth today, he would immediately cast Pope Francis into Hell fire and he would furthermore reduce the Roman Catholic church down to a pile of rubble and ashes. The Roman Catholic church has never dealt with the gospel at all, the Catholic church specialises in bondage and implementing an oppressive lordship infrastructure over believers. I never accused you of being a pedophile, you need to read my comment again and read it carefully.
Again, because of the common priest culture of buggering children(an issue that you lied about in that you attempted to dismiss as a problem of the past), just as it is possible that pope Francis could be involved in such activities, it is also possible that you could also be partaking in such behaviour. You have joined and immersed yourself into a institution where pedophilia is commonplace, therefore it is only logical to conclude that you could also be involved in such decadency and that you maybe wish to be contaminated by such filth.
I have separated myself from the institutional church beast infrastructure because I have seen this system for the fraud that it is, it is not a representation of the real church, its fruits declare this plainly. By the way Christ called out evil doers and evil that was taking place amongst certain people and particular groups, Paul also did the same, I am merely following suit. Ephesians 5:11 instructs us to have no fellowship with the unfruitful works of darkness but to rather reprove them. Therefore if you are truly a “man of God” you wouldn’t have a problem with me cascading an organisation that you are involved in for habouring such evil activities, that is unless you were taking part in these activities yourself.
You ought to be very careful with the words that you use, they can reveal much about your character and what you really stand for. Also, I never asked you for any respect, i simply came here to voice my opinion on the original topic of discussion. By the way, not judging does not mean that I cannot call out wicked and evil deeds when I see them.
Be careful whom you call wicked and what you call wicked deeds. The Pharisees accused Jesus of those things.
The difference here is that the fruits that Christ brought forward to the people were good, the same however cannot be stated for Catholic church. Nothing but wickedness and evil under the guise of “philanthropy” and “helping communities” has spewed forth from the mouth this organisation, a ready made skateboard of death and destruction from its very conception. Christ repaired that which was broken, the Catholic church however takes advantage of the broken purely for merchandising purposes, a travesty and a crying shame.
You don’t give up, do you? If you do a careful examination of the history of the Catholic Church, you will find out that any wrongs her members have committed pale in comparison to all the good she has done. But you are not interested in fact; in your anger at the Catholic Church for whatever your reason may be, you only want to convince yourself that the Catholic Church is evil and you will embrace any delusion that helps you believe that, even though they be light years away from the truth. Anger blind us to the truth. As the old Danish proverb says, “When anger blinds the eyes, truth disappears.” And in case you don’t like Danish proverbs, how about the Bible?: “The fool gives vent to all his anger.” (Proverbs 29:11) “It is good sense in a man to be slow to anger.” (Proverbs 19:11)
Matthew 7:17-18 reads:
7:17 Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit.
7:18 A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.
The foundational pillars of ths Roman Catholic Church are saturated in disease, murder, blood, pillage, rape, robbery and any other bloody crimes that one can think of. Since the foundation of your institution is corrupt, what few good deeds you carry out or may claim to do in 2015 makes absolutely no difference to the structure which overall is contaminated and thus only fit for demolition.
I hold a disdain for the institutional church beast infrastructure, the Roman Catholic Church forms only one part of that structure, the other denominations must also be factored into this behemoth. Had you been a representative of say the pentecostal division of the church beast I would have given you the exact same grilling and held you to account in exactly the same manner.
The problem that you have with me is that I speak plainly, I speak the truth without the sugarcoating luxury, in the same manner that Christ stated we should communicate. Matthew 5:37 reads:
5:37 But let your communication be, Yea, yea; Nay, nay: for whatsoever is more than these cometh of evil.
Your futile attempts to defend the iniquities and the transgressions of your organisation is an evil practice and the Most High is taking down notes everytime you engage in such behaviour.
Hello my friend.
You correctly quoted Jesus’ statement that “by their fruits you shall know them.” Well, as I mentioned to you, at my jubilee celebration last week there were 300 people present who came from all the different parishes where I have worked over the last 25 years, and the tributes that were given, especially one by a 15-year-old boy who talked of how I have changed his life and strengthened his family, as well as the never-ending stream of well wishes and grateful comments people wrote in cards to me is clear evidence that I have served the Lord Jesus well these past 25 years. I have done so because I am a faithful son of Christ and the Catholic Church He established, and I have passed that faith on to my flock with dedication. These are the fruits by which I shall be known. There are literally thousands of other priests worldwide who do the same thing. The lives we touch, the charities the Catholic Church perform, the hospitals, the emergency aid works, the missionaries who have gone into poor countries to help the starving…I could go on and on…all these are the fruits by which we shall be known. As I’ve said before, yes there have been sins and sinners in the Church over the years – no group is exempt from those – but the misdeeds pale in comparison to the myriad amount of good the Church has done over the past two thousand years. You can continue to spew your accusations against the Church, but they are not true just because you say so. Any honest investigation of the facts of history prove this.
My question to you is, Jesus said, “by their fruits you shall know them.” Well, what are your fruits? I’ll I’ve seen from you so far is libelous attacks against Pope Francis and priests and any established denominations of Christianity and much anger – nothing positive or constructive. What deeds speak in your favor to show you are a faithful disciple of Christ? Remember, he preached love and forgiveness and said “judge not, and you will not be judged”.
Peace my friend
Again, your good works in a small corner are not a reflection of the Roman Catholic Church as a whole. Lot was a good man living amongst the wicked, the Most High destroy Sodom, Gomorrah and the surrounding cities because of their wickedness.
The same destruction is set to be brought upon the Roman Catholic Church, you have two choices, leave now or become a casualty and a victim in the up and coming warfare and carnage.
The problem here is that you assume that everybody else in the church is operating in the same fashion as yourself. If you were a true servant of the living God you would have examined, scrutinised and separated yourself from your branch of the institutional church beast infrastructure, yet instead you have chosen to stick by, defend and make excuses for the wicked acts carried out by the Catholic Church.
You are a faithful son to an establishment which is pretending to be a representation of the true church that Christ established 2000 years ago. You continue to state that the Catholic Church has done far more good than evil yet all we need do is simply look at the conditions of the countries where the Catholic Church has a stronghold. What do we see, prosperity and growth? No, on the contrary, we witness complete and utter ruin.
Pope Francis is not above scrutiny and examination. I did not attack Francis, I simply gave my reckoning on what he could be partaking in behind closed doors.
On the contrary, I have and still am setting many folks free from the institutional church beast infrastructure lies and deception. I am daily aiding people in the deprogramming and the decontamination process, I am bringing folks the truth, encouraging those who wish to experience real movement with the Most High to liberate themselves from the restrictive clutches of the church beast and walk with the Most High as individuals, I am encouraging people to trust in themselves once again and to not be afraid to venture onto new ground, I am bringing folks the true gospel, not this GMO mutated nonsense that has been propagated by various church denominations, lastly I am showing people that so called “church leadership” in all its flavours and glory has been a complete and utter failure and as a result is no longer a requirement.
Hello my friend.
Boy are you one angry man! Be careful, for in your zeal for what you believe is the truth, you may be doing not what pleases Jesus but what grieves him. Saul of Tarsus thought he was serving God when he arrested Christians to save them from what he thought was the gross error of their ways. When Jesus revealed himself to him, he asked, “Saul, Saul, why do you persecute me?” Are you confident that on the day of Judgment Jesus will welcome you with open arms for tearing people away from the Church he himself established just because you are angry and can’t see the good she in fact does? Are you sure he is pleased with your labors? If he were to speak to you today, would he say, “Verbs2015, Verbs2015, why do you persecute me?”
The stakes are very high in this game you are playing. In your effort to “save” people from organized religion, you may in fact be destroying your own soul. I fear for you. It is a deadly game that you are playing. Be CERTAIN you are on the side of Truth before you lash out, and anger always blinds us to truth.
Go with God, my friend.
Kudos to you for standing on the firm ground Jesus Himself also stood on, and that is His Fathers word that He never veered from no matter who was in front of Him,and called out the false teachings many followed in His day……….. I was brought up catholic and when the truth of the Holy word was revealed to me I asked the priest why do we say the rosary that isn’t in the bible (just catholics) and why do we pray to the virgin Mary when Christ hung on the cross and is our mediator and not Mary??????? I was put out for going against their belief system PRAISE GOD!!!!!! May God Bless the work you are showing towards His name my friend.
Julia
Thank you. I do stand on the firm ground Jesus stood on…”And so I say to you, you are ‘Peter’ and upon this rock I will build my Church, and the jaws of death shall not prevail against it. And to you I give the keys to the kingdom of heaven; whatever you declare bound on earth shall be held bound in heaven, and whatever you declare loosed on earth shall be declared loosed in heaven.” (Matt. 16:13-20.) I do not separate myself from the Church created by Jesus himself no matter what anyone else may think. I remain firm in Christ.
I am not surprised at all that they threw you out of their establishment, this is typically the recompense of anybody who decides to retain their thinking and reasoning faculties and who asks questions pertaining to inconsistencies and errors in their doctrine. This is the institutional church beast way, everybody must think and behave alike, there is no room for individuality nor free thought, the individual who asks questions and who uses his/her critical thinking skills is an enemy to the church, as that person is not in a position to where they can be manipulated and merchandised by church leadership, thus they must either be converted to think like the rest of the group through shaming or guilt tactics or failing this they will be gotten rid of.
Them throwing you out of the church actually did you a favour, what they would label as rebellion and falling short, the Most High would look at as a fresh start. The issue with the worshipping of Mary is yet another inconsistency in a long line of problematic teachings that clergy leadership within the Catholic Church have yet to answer satisfactorily. Your encouragement is much appreciated, disingenuous buzzards who continue to uphold hypocrisy and doctrinal disparities will be called out by myself everytime.
The important thing here is to trust in the Spirit that dwells within you, clergy have lead many to believe that they are necessary requirements when needing to connect with the Most High aswell as interpreting the scriptures, nothing could be further from the truth. Learn to trust in yourself, the decontamination and deprogramming from the institutional church lies and deception is a beast to overcome at first, however with persistence you can break through to new ground and areas that you thought were never possible. Again, the Most High is now looking for the individual, the nobody, the person with no reputation to carry out his will on this planet, church pastors, clergy leadership, evangelists, reverends, bishops etc have all been put to the side and discarded of upon the mountain of rejection.
Most High Bless
Where did you get the idea that I was thrown out of the Church? I have been a priest for 25 years. I just had a Jubilee celebration party with 300 people who testified to how I have brought them to Christ and changed their lives for the better. What have you accomplished?
That particular comment was directed towards Julia.
Sorry, my bad! By the way, we don’t worship Mary. We merely ask her to pray to Jesus for us, knowing that he will listen to his mother, just like he did at the wedding in Cana.
father Carrozza………… It is written we are to pray to God our Father in Jesus name NOT Mary…….It is sad to see nothing has changed in your teaching in 40 years since I found the truth that Jesus is our intercessor and mediator of a better covenant. (Hebrews 8:6).Christ appears in the presence of God for us NOT MARY. (Hebrews 9:24…… 7:24,25).
Julia
Verbs2015………….. You are correct that being told to leave their establishment of lies has set me free to serve the true living Christ who dwells in His people that are built up a spiritual building through His Blessed Holy Spirit! (1 Peter 2:4-10).😁 For Christ died to rebuild His church in 3 days as he does not dwell in those which man has built that still follow the old ways of service. (Hebrews 9:24). It is good to meet another following the call on their life……….. God Bless you always in your work for Him Verbs2015.
Julia
Julia…so what do you do about what Mary said, “from this day all generations will call me blessed.” (Luke 1:48)? At the wedding feast of Cana, when Mary interceded on behalf of the groom, did Jesus say to her, “Why are you speaking to me? You have no authority to ask me for anything?” No, he in fact listened to her and did what she asked of him. That’s all our prayers asking Mary to intercede for us are all about. We pray to Jesus THROUGH Mary. Our asking Mary or any of the saints to intercede for us in no way denies the role of Jesus as the One Mediator between God and man. That was a reference to His death and resurrection as being the only sacrifice that has united man again with God. It has absolutely nothing to do with asking God for favors, and It has nothing to do with asking Mary to pray for us. Do you ever ask a friend to pray for you? If you do, are you turning your friend into another Mediator instead of Christ? Of course not. The scriptures abound with examples of people praying for others, such as the church praying for Peter when he was in prison (cf.Acts 12:5). Nowhere does the Bible say that we lose our ability to intercede for others once we enter heaven; in fact, the Book of Revelation clearly shows the saints in prayer for the suffering Church before God. And who better to intercede for us to Christ than Mary, his mother?
Let me explain it with an example: a woman my mother worked with once got a dozen roses delivered to her by her son’s fiancee. The card read, “Thank you for having such a wonderful son!” Her gift to her future mother-in-law in no way took any honor away from her fiance; on the contrary, by honoring his mother she was also honoring him, as surely he would be most pleased with what the girl had done. That’s what we do with Mary: we honor Jesus by thanking his mother for bringing him to us. Proper devotion to Mary is also devotion to Jesus. We don’t worship Mary. Our Catholic prayers and liturgy abound with worship of Christ. He is the center of everything we as Christians are about. We never turn to Mary INSTEAD OF to Jesus, but we ask her to pray with us, knowing that, Just as at the wedding at Cana, if Mary asks Jesus for something on our behalf, he won’t say no to her. It’s as simple as that, and not only does our prayer not offend the Lord, rather, it greatly pleases him.
Peace my friend.
father Carrozza………, Yes Mary most assuredly said she would be called blessed, but it is not written that we are then suppose to start praying to her or that would be the next verse as scripture is very clear how we are to conduct our life. I can’t help but notice how you call the church she all the time and I’m sure you are referring to Mary. The truth is Christ is the head of the church which HE has purchased with HIS own blood. (Acts 20:28).
We see in the simple asking of the disciples to Jesus how should they pray clearly tells us Mary was not mentioned ONLY OUR FATHER. (Luke 11:1-4)…….. I remember the rosary and all the hail Marys of your religion which I have seen to be vain repetitions. (Matthew 6:7-13).
As you reprimand Verbs2015 to be careful of taking people out of your false teaching beast church, may I remind you that to add or take away from scripture jeopardizes being removed from the book of life and Gods Holy City. (Revelation 22:18,19).
Jesus blood bought church is HIS and is NEVER referred to as she or her.
Blessings to understanding.
Julia
Julia,
The act of praying to Mary illustrates yet again how the Roman Catholic church simply cannot be part of the true church that Christ established. We are clearly informed that there is ONE mediator between men and God, the man Christ Jesus(1 Timothy 2:5). Note how this scripture clearly states “the man Christ Jesus”, there is no mention of any woman here. Again clergy leadership delight in lies and falsehoods, they would much rather defend and uphold their janky and ratchet traditions over the commandments of the Most High, exactly the same behaviours that the Scribes and the Pharisees partook in.
Confession boxes, statues and pictures of supposedly Christ and the saints, even though we are expressly commanded not to make any images of any kind, beads, etc, the iniquities of this particular church beast institution are simply innumerable.
So now you have a problem with confession, statues, etc…yes, the usual litany from Catholic-bashers who blindly condemn without knowing a thing about what they are talking about. Consider the following:
You have a problem with confession. Well, what then did Jesus mean when he said to the apostles on the night of the resurrection…”Receive the Holy Spirit. Whose sins you forgive are forgiven them. Whose sins you retain are retained.” (John 20:23) He couldn’t have been more clear about giving the apostles the authority to forgive sins in His name!!! And please don’t try to use the old argument ,”Well, Jesus gave that power to the apostles but he didn’t intend for it to be given to anyone else.” That is silly and makes what Jesus said meaningless. Why would he only give it to the apostles?
You claim that statues, pictures, etc. are a violation of the commandments. But what did God command Moses to do after he had already given Moses the 10 Commandments? “Make a bronze serpent and mount it on a pole, and whoever looks at it will recover.” He also commanded during the building of the ark of the covenant that two gold cherubim be placed on the lid. So what was God doing, giving them a law and then immediately commanding them to violate it? No. The commandment says “you shall not carve idols; you shall not make a graven image and bow down and worship before it.” What he was forbidding was what they did with the golden calf – creating an image and worshiping it as if the image was itself a god. Or what Laban did when Rachel stole his household gods. He ran after her and said, “come back! You’ve stolen my gods! Now I am ruined!” When we put up a crucifix or a statue in a church we don’t worship it. If someone steals our crucifix we don’t say that Jesus has been stolen from us. We would simply have to go out and get a new one. No one for a moment thinks that crucifix is actually Jesus himself hanging on our church wall! But that’s what they did in ancient times: they made an idol out of metal and worshiped it as if the very idol itself was God. That is idolatry, and that’s what God forbade, not merely a statue that helps us focus our minds on him better. Do you keep photos of loved one in your wallet, on your desk, or ob your wall? Well, if what you say about statues is true…and you added “pictures” in your discussion…then you are guilty of idolatry for having a photo of someone else. Now isn’t that silly?
I sense that something traumatic happened to you that made or forced you to leave the Catholic Church. I cannot make you return, but for your own sake, holding anger and spending all the energy you do attacking the Church does not give you peace nor does it offer you healing. Christ’s peace cannot rest within you while you hold anger. I have had many people harm me over the years, and I get angry at times over the injustices I see and I feel bad for people who blindly cling to obvious errors while convincing themselves that it is the truth. But I don’t go out on some fervent crusade to show them how wrong they are and blast their boat out of the water. I try to offer them correction, but if they won’t accept it I offer it up to God and ask him to help them see their errors and to give me the peace I need in my heart to forgive them and move on. Anger blinds us to truth. Christ’s truth leads us to peace of heart, which I sincerely wish for you.
Julia…Actually, “she” is a reference to the Church as the Bride of Christ from the Book of Revelation. If you check the facts, the Catholic Church is in fact very biblical.
I simply cannot allow you to get away with that sir, you cannot render constructive criticism, scrutinising and a thorough examination of your failing institution aswell as others as “being angry”. The obvious difference between Saul and myself is I am not forcing this path upon anybody, I am simply offering a viable remedy to those who wish to take it in the same manner that Christ did.
I am very confident and will stand bold and upright on the day of judgement. The case would be very different however if I failed to take action based upon what I see taking place within this church beast. The mistake you continue to make is you believe that the Catholic church is representative of the church Christ has established, however nothing could be further from the truth.
I am pulling folks to freedom from the clutches of the institutional church beast infrastructure, the fact that the foundation of the Catholic church is build upon this same monolith of malevolence is not my fault, however I am performing my reasonable service. Remember, Christ never instituted any denomination, he simply stated that believers are to worship the Most High in spirit and in truth, it is man who has come along and forged these denominational “titles” and in doing so has created complete chaos and utter confusion.
I no longer walk in fear, this is a technique commonly used by church leadership and clergy against their parishioners in order to keep them in line and under control. “Don’t Do This, Beware Of That, Don’t Read This, Steer Clear Of That, Watch Out For This, Be Afraid Of That” etc. This technique simply doesn’t work on me anymore, I trust in the Spirit to guide me into all truth as per the words of Christ in John 16:13.
Hello my friend.
Your argument never progresses. You keep going in circular patterns and say nothing either new nor constructive. You still keep spitting out the same canard that you have convinced yourself is true, namely, that the Catholic Church is evil. Actually, though, by your own words I can prove you wrong. You mentioned in one post that, even though you acknowledged that some Catholics have done good deeds, the fact that even some of the things some people in the Church did were wrong condemns her as evil. But that argument works perfectly well in the reverse: even though some of the deeds some Catholics did were evil, the fact that some of the deeds some Catholics did proves that she is holy. It works both ways!
I always find it a danger for anyone to be overly confident about his salvation. The Bible is rife with warnings about self-justification. Jesus challenges us to “be perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect.” He also says, “judge not, and you will not be judged…for the measure you use to measure with will be measured out to you.” If I may quote you: “if Christ were to land upon earth today, he would immediately cast Pope Francis into Hell fire”. Are you trying to tell me that wasn’t a judgment?? You have judged Pope Francis as evil and worthy of condemnation with no evidence except that he is the leader of a Church you despise. That is hardly Christ-like. Jesus WILL hold you accountable for that judgment of him, and you might find Jesus saying to you, “As you have judged Pope Francis, so I will judge you…out of my sight and into the Hell fire to which you condemned Pope Francis!”
To be honest I’m about finished here, I am merely freewheeling now. I have more than proven my position as you have not been able to rebutt any of the points that have been raised, your appeal rather has been through emotion. On the issue of making the same points, firstly repetition is the mother of skill, secondly repeating the same points demonstrates that I am consistent in my argument and thirdly you have failed to bring forward anything new, therefore there is no need for me to venture onto new ground.
No, the institution is wicked and founded upon wickedness, this is the crux of the matter and has always been my position. Your argument is a poor one at best, a house that is built upon a poor foundation is not all of a sudden upright and strong because good people are living inside the property, your argument is based upon folly sir.
Of course, clergy leadership want their parishioners in a perpetual position of uncertainty, this way the leaders can remain relevant aswell as continue to merchandise their followers. My salvation is confidently founded upon Christ. Yes Christ instructed us to be perfect like the Most High, the perfection Christ was alluding to comes in the form of honesty, responsibility, and accountability, none of which have I seen you exhibited yet.
You simply do not understand the politics of your church and how things work in the real world, Francis is not there make any changes for the better, his is simply the new face of Catholicism that your institution has decided to present to the general populous, the people who elected him are more powerful than he is, they are the real merchants and sorcerers in the background pulling the strings, Francis is merely a puppet carrying out the instructions given to him from these men within the shadows.
Yes, I stick to my statement, Francis would indeed be cast straight into hellfire by Christ if he were to come to earth today, because Francis has willingly offered himself up as an instrument to be used in order to keep followers in a position to where they can still be manipulated and deceived. Again, the Catholic church is only one division of the institutional church beast infrastructure, the other denominations are guilty of the same crimes, so don’t worry, Francis will not be feeling the heat by himself.
Me be told by the Most High that I am going to hell for “judging” Francis? Highly unlikely, as I have continually mentioned before, I have acknowledged the innumerable transgressions of the church beast system and have thus separated myself from it, therefore I will not be judged in the same manner as those who are still involved with it. Now I m going to deal with your weak defence of other things that your institution partakes in which yet again are either not part of the scriptures or we are expressly instructed not to partake in.
Hello my friend.
How sad. I have shot down every one of your arguments with logical, reasonable argumentation, something which you have never once shown in any of your arguments, and your only defense is to accuse me of not being able to respond. Perhaps it’s because you don’t want to be correct, you want to be convinced that what you see falsely is the truth. I assure you I keep my people in the light and teach with truth and certainty, unlike you who spew angry rants and make broad-sweeping condemnations of all churches with no evidence but your own blind bitterness. Farewell my friend. May God bless you.
father Carrozza……… Have you even noticed your reply has completely avoided addressing my comment. You go on and; n about everything but which is very topical of one who stands for a lie and not the truth. When the disciples asked Jesus how do we pray it was answered to start out OUR FATHER who art in heaven NOT MARY…………. This avoiding of a simple comment confirms all the other gibberish you go on and on about within the walls of your church. You are in prime form of 2 Peter 3:16 ……. “As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest (twist) as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction. You have stated clearly though very well and I QUOTE your own words the roman catholic church simply cannot be part of the true churchChrist established BINGO hit the nail on the head!
Dear Julia:
Has it ever occurred to you that YOU are the one who is not listening? I explained to you exactly why we invoke the help of Mary and the Saints IN ADDITION to our prayer to God, but you have ignored that. Did Jesus not tell his disciples to pray for one another? He never told them, “don’t ask someone else to pray for you, pray only for yourself.” We are only asking Mary and the saints to pray for us. I will repeat, WE DO NOT PRAY TO MARY INSTEAD OF TO JESUS! We ask Mary to pray WITH US to Jesus, just like when you ask a friend to pray for you.
You claim to be making “valid points,” but your diatribe is a twisted and undecipherable angry rant. As for your assertion that somehow my words prove that The Catholic Church cannot be part of the true Church of Christ, and your kindergarten-like response of “BINGO- hit the nail on the head” (Why don’t you just say “oh yeah? or stick out your tongue at me – it would be just as mature:) let me ask you to respond to this question: what in fact makes any denomination of Christianity part of the true Church of Christ? Please present to me your criteria.
I will present you mine:
In order to be part of the true Church of Christ, one has to continue an unbroken line of descent from the apostles to whom Jesus gave the authority to speak in his name. No Christian denies that the apostles had the authority to speak in Jesus’ name. At Ceserea Philippi, Jesus made his famous commission to Peter: “You are Peter, and upon this rock I will build my Church, and the jaws of death shall not prevail against it. And I will give to you the keys to the kingdom of heaven. Whatever you declare bound on earth shall be bound in heaven, and whatever you declare loosed on earth shall be loosed in heaven.” (Matt. 16:13-20) And before you try to quote the “petros” vs. “petra” argument from Greek to “disprove” the authority Jesus gave Peter, remember that this difference in gender only applies in Greek and Latin, not in the Aramaic language that Jesus spoke and that Matthew’s gospel was originally written in. In Aramaic, Jesus actually said you are Kepha, and on this kepha I will build my Church. Finally, if you reject the idea that Jesus was giving Peter the authority to speak in his name, then what was that whole passage about after all? If it’s not meant to be giving Peter Jesus’ authority, it was Jesus babbling and making no sense at all!
We also know from the situation in Acts 1 where Peter, quoting Scripture, says it is appropriate for someone to be chosen to replace Judas Iscariot, that they drew lots which fell to Matthias, who was added to the twelve apostles, that their authority can be handed on to another. Peter did that also with Ignatius in Antioch, and Paul – not one of the twelve but one given “the handclasp of friendship” and thereby added to the apostles, gave his authority to Timothy and Titus as bishops – Paul’s own word that we still use today.
In Acts 15 we see the apostles getting together in Jerusalem to settle the debate as to whether Gentile converts had to become Jews before they could become Christians. The leaders among the apostles, after prayerfully making their decision, sent out a strong directive to the people with their decision that Gentiles did not have to become Jews and be circumcised, and it was issued with a clear sense of authority and obligation for all to accept it. This was the first Council of the Church – the Council of Jerusalem – and to this very day the highest teaching authority in the Church is that of an ecumenical council, the last one being the Second Vatican Council. So as you can see, the Catholic Church is VERY BIBLICALLY SOUND. We can point to Sacred Scripture far better than any self-appointed minister can to validate his authority.
Finally, St. John says, “anyone who is so “progressive” as not to remain in the teaching of Christ does not have God; whoever remains in him has the Father and the Son.” (2 John 1:9). The teaching of Jesus is clear: “If he will not listen even to the Church, then treat him as you would a Gentile or a tax collector. Amen I say to you, whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.” (Matt. 18:17-18) The Catholic Church is firm in that identity. We can pinpoint our Jesus-given authority. We also can state with absolute certainty that those who separate from the Catholic Church have lost their solid foundation in Christ and have strayed to teachers who, as St. Paul says, say things that “tickle their ears.” (2 Tim. 4:3) Do not be one of those people. Christ clearly established the Catholic Church under the authority of St. Peter to guide us in the truth and to preserve the teaching he gave the apostles for all of time. Anyone who teaches otherwise is a charlatan who is leading you astray from the fullness of the truth of Christ. Do not allow yourself to be led astray by “false prophets who come to you in sheep’s clothing but underneath are ravenous wolves.” (Matt. 7:15) Remain firmly rooted in Jesus Christ in the Church He HIMSELF established, and don’t let anyone, no matter how sincere he may sound, lead you astray.
Well father Carrozza I will let you go and play church since you have only resorted to name calling,the call on my life is of greater value as we are not suppose to argue the word and I love God more than to continue here. Blessings….
Julia
Verbs2015……… Yes you are correct that praying on beads or anything else that takes away from the truth of the word is against God.It didn’t take the people long to carve out a calf when Moses delayed his return from the mount,and this proves the scripture when Jesus told Thomas blessed are the eyes that have not seen yet believe as that is what FAITH is all about! God Bless You as you gather those who have been takenbyfalse religion.
Julia
The reason why certain contentions are continually raised against the Catholic church is because many of the actions they partake in blatantly do not line up with the scriptures, it is certainly not always a case of “catholic bashing” as you would like to have us believe.
John 20:23 goes back to Matthew 6:14-15 which reads:
6:14 – For if ye forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you:
6:15 – But if ye forgive not men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses.
That is what the word “trespass” means, to encroach upon somebody else’s space unwarranted. In other words I am supposed to forgive people who do wrong TO ME. The sins I commit within myself do not affect anybody else, therefore why am I confessing them to somebody else? My personal sins are between me, Christ and the Father. However yet again the Catholic church has completely twisted scripture, now somehow we have gotten a confession box and confession of personal sins to clergy leadership out of this.
No, the Catholic church simply uses the confession box to keep tabs on what people are doing and to be nosey parkers prying into the private lives of folks, that is the long and short of it. Forgiving somebody for the wrong that they have committed against you is very different from confessing your personal sins to another person sitting on the other side of a wooden construct. Again, this simply goes back to the point that I have been making over and over again, the Roman Catholic church is simply carrying out its own agenda under the guise of “following Christ”.
Your excuses for the numerous idols and images that have scattered throughout Catholic church buildings are very poor. In relation to the bronze serpent, its only purpose was to stay the plague to those that looked upon it, after the plague had been halted its purpose was immediately over. You forget that folks later on started to worship that same bronze serpent and therefore it had to be destroyed. I have been inside Catholic churches before, I have seen people bow down at the base of the many idols therein, some have even kissed images and statues.
The Roman Catholic church simply encourages idolatry, people coming into a “place of worship” are immediately going to associate and relate the many images, the statues and the crucifixes around with various figureheads mentioned in the bible, there is no way that you can circumvent this. Your mentioning of keeping photos of loved ones is yet again a weak argument because my wallet is not a place of worship, neither is my house.
The man who hangs on the crucifixes throughout various churches and who is also represented in various paintings goes by the name of Cesare Borgia, a man who lived in the late 1400s, an Italian man who was the son of Alexander Borgia the 6th pope of Rome. Cesare was a notorious poisoner, he was involved in an incestuous relationship with his sister Lucrezia Borgia killing her husband to be, he was also a homosexual. Cesare died at the young age of 31 from poisoning himself or from some sort of illness if my memory serves me correct. It was Alexander after his son’s death during the Renaissance period who decided to authorise taking images of his son to the new world and thus the conquered indigenous natives were forced to worship his deceased son as a “god”. Thus the Roman Catholic church has continued the tradition of worshipping and encouraging their followers to worship a man who was a terrorist and a murderer ever since.
Your continued excusing of iniquity after iniquity that your organisation takes part in is truly a sight to behold, and you still believe that your miniscule good deeds in a corner are going to save this institution from destruction, delusions of grandeur sir, delusions of grandeur.
Hello my friend.
You have absolutely NO IDEA what you are talking about when discussing Catholic confession. Having heard confessions for 25 years, I can assure you that it has nothing to do with poking into people lives and prying; it has all to do with healing them. By your judgment, you would have to condemn all psychologists as pokers and pryers. I have seen MIRACLES in confession. I have seen the peace of people who have carried the burden for their sins for years and have asked God on their knees to forgive them but not found it, finally come in to confession and be relieved. There is no healing more powerful than getting something off your chest and having another person tell you God has forgiven you. Any psychologist will tell you of the tremendous healing power of confession, and that’s why Jesus gave us the beautiful sacrament of Reconciliation: because he knew we need that human element!
Your statement that some Catholic crucifixes are made to look like Cesare Borgia is patently false, a lie made up by someone who hates the Church, and you know it!! I’m surprised that someone who claims to be a disciple of Jesus would allow himself to stoop to the level of reporting such obviously false and malicious dribble. Most of the figures of Christ on the cross are in fact taken from ancient iconography largely modeled on the Holy Face of Jesus in the Shroud of Turin.
Finally, you make an interesting point in your accusation of me of “excusing iniquity after iniquity that your organisation takes part in is truly a sight to behold.” Is it possible that I am not excusing but FORGIVING? Pope John Paul II made a public statement to all the world apologizing for all the evils done by members of the Church over the past 2,000 years and asked for the world’s forgiveness. No other leader of any religion or nation has ever been so courageous. Maybe I am guilty not of excusing but of forgiving, as Christ teaches us to do!
An interesting side-note: you mention the Borgias and one of them being a homosexual. What translation of the Bible do you use? I suspect the King James version. Am I right? Did you know that King James was a known practicing homosexual??? Check it out! You’ll be shocked to learn the truth.
Peace my friend.
The bible instructs us to confess our sins unto God, the Roman Catholic however establishment instructs its followers to confess their sins to another man. Hollywood script writers couldn’t make this material up. I do not buy into the Catholic Church’s public relations department spin pertaining to the confession box, it is simply an instrument used to gather private data on individuals, plain and simple. There are no scriptures in the bible where are told to confess our sins unto men, none.
We know the image portrayed as Christ within your institution is not even a close resemblance. For starters Christ was a very dark skinned man plus Christ also had wooly hair. Christ was not of European descent therefore why would the Catholic church even construct such an image? We know exactly why now, because the popular image of Christ propagated by your church is actually of Cesare Borgia, thus Roman Catholic churches around the world are actually giant shrines and temples built in honour of Cesare. You are not worshipping Christ whenever you step into the Catholic church, you are actually worshipping and paying homage to Cesare Borgia(idolatry). I do not have to lie about this, put “Cesare Borgia Jesus” into google, click on images and you tell me what you see, the same images that your church uses to depict Christ. Your images of “Christ” are modeled off a 15th century criminal and murderer.
Psychologists deal with the physical mind, I don’t even have to deal with this point that you made because it is so weak and completely irrelevant. Pope John Paul II was simply the old bird cage liner in the bird cage, the old mascot of the Roman Catholic church, yet another individual who failed to deal with priests and their rampant sex abuse of children. By the way did you know that your beloved Pope John Paul II before he became pope sold Cyanide gas to the Nazis, the same gas that the Nazis used against the Jewish people in their concentration camps? John Paul II has quite a dark history, his image of papacy hides quite a sordid list of bloody crimes.
You have to laugh really, John Paul II the former Cyanide salesman gives the world a public apology for the ills committed by the church yet Francis comes out and states that many of the ills are still continuing and are in fact getting worse. No, the Roman Catholic church as I have mentioned before was a ready made skateboard of destruction from its conception, apologies mean absolutely nothing as the crimes still persist. John Paul’s apology was simply a PR stunt.
King James being a homosexual is a rumour that I discovered to be false years ago, it turns out that the very people who have written books accusing King James of being a homosexual, when asked to supply the evidence behind their claims, they simply couldn’t. However rather than retract the claim for fear of monetary losses, they have simply allowed this false information to continue being used in the hopes that nobody else will press them for further proof.
Actually, St. James says, “declare your sins to one another.” So you are wrong on that point. You are also wrong about King James. His affair with Robert Carr, 1st Duke of Somerset, is well documented. see the following: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Personal_relationships_of_James_VI_and_I. Check your sources more carefully.
Pope John Paul a cyanide salesman? Really??? Who made up that lunacy? You are now guilty of libel and slander for which Christ WILL hold you accountable. Of that you can be certain!
Your dismissal of John Paul II is also heinous. His deeds are well-documented, he was Time’s Man of the Year for his positive role in the life of humanity, and his funeral was attended by presidents, kings, queens, and THOUSANDS of professional people who attested to all he did in the world. My favorite is to remember how he met with Mehmet Ali- Acga, his would-be assassin, and forgave him. When John Paul was dying, Acga sent word that he was praying for him, that he had become someone he greatly admired. Kind of blows your theory about him being a relic right out of the water, doesn’t it? If John Paul did not do any good during his lifetime, then why don’t you go out and do the good you claim he should have done? It’s easy to throw accusations around wildly. It’s quite another to put your money where your mouth is and actually act in a Christ-like manner, in which your accusations against Pope Francis and Pope John Paul II fail miserably!
By now I have no respect left for you. You do not argue with any faint attempt at truth. You spew whatever you want to believe, and are calumnious, hate-filled, and evil in the process. The Jesus I worship cannot be pleased with your rants. And if the Jesus you worship is pleased with you, I don’t want to know him, for he’s not the real thing. I worship the TRUE Christ of love, truth, forgiveness, and compassion, not your “Jesus” of hate, anger, and condemnation.
In the book of James we are told to confess our “faults” to one another, it does not say “sins”. Yet again a clear illustration of you guys over there simply following your own agenda.
On the King James issue, the information that you are showing me I came across years ago, the info presented has already been proven to be fraudulent, you are not showing me anything new that I haven’t already investigated myself.
Your problem is simply you are unable to accept the truth when it is placed into your lap, you must continue to hold onto your 25 years old plus Catholic church world view at all costs. God forbid you should discover that the organisation that you are working for is really a fraud with many dark secrets.
On John Paul II, his former “employment” as a poison gas salesman is a documented fact, that is not my opinion or an “accusation”. The Catholic church simply adorned Paul with a priest’s robe to hide his sordid past. On Francis I clearly stated that these were my opinions, however when dealing with John and his old job, that is a fact that you cannot escape.
You worship Cesare Borgia, he is your lord and saviour, your shrine aka church is decked out with images of him, you pay homage, worship and pray to a 15th century murderer and criminal everyday.
The venom spewed at Father Carrozza and the hatred expressed for him and the Church is truly foul, disgusting and evil. Those here who have done so need to reflect prayerfully and deeply at what you have done and what you are doing and repent, begging for mercy, for your salvation, before it’s too late.
Father Carrozza has explained the Christian Faith and the Church established by Jesus thoroughly and the responses have fallen completely flat, convincing me once again of the Truth, that the Catholic Church is the one True Church. Despite the fact that sinners are members – – – shocking!!! – – – the Church has stood astride history for the last 2000 years even though She has been constantly attacked from the beginning by those who sought to destroy Her, and continue to do so today. Recall the promise of Jesus that the gates of hell shall never prevail against the Church He established, and we see that prophecy fulfilled to the present day. In that same span of time, whole civilizations have risen, thrived and disappeared; whole nations have come on the scene, thrived and vanished; whole empires have risen, thrived and disappeared; all around the Church this has occurred, yet the Church still remains. Those are facts and not just words. Those facts speak volumes and much more loudly than the despicable vitriol spewed here at Father Carrozza.
May God continue to bless you, Father. Thank you for your witness to the Faith and the True Church.
Thank you for your support. God bless you too, my friend!
Hello my friend.
Well, it seems we are at an impasse here. You continue to maintain that the evidence you present is true, while I continue to maintain that it is false. You also are convinced that Christ is pleased with your attacks on the institutional churches and the character of Pope Francis and St. John Paul II, while I maintain that he is not. I guess the truth will only be told when you stand in judgment before Jesus. Either he will say to you, “Well done brave and faithful servant! Thank you for exposing these evil institutions and people for what they are” or he will say, “As you have judged them so I judge you. Out of my sight you evildoer!” Only then will the truth come to light. Until then, I wish you peace in Christ.
Your remaining reign is but a short one, enjoy the little time that you have left, as the true soldiers are shortly to come through. All the best.
Well father Carrozza my time can be better spent where people want to learn the truth and not resort to name calling. The call on my life is of more importance to me than to watch someone going on and on about playing church. Blessings
Julia
Sounds like an admission of defeat to me. You couldn’t respond to any of my questions nor could you refute my argument. God bless you.
All you have done is simply appeal to folks to accept the Roman Catholic church interpretation of the scriptures over the plain reading of the text, especially in problematic areas. Logic, no, you have used illogical reasoning most of the time. The poor foundation of a house can all of a sudden become sturdy and strong when good people move into that property, this is the type of nonsensical bread and circus buffoonery that you have commonly displayed in your responses. Anybody who speaks the truth plainly is deemed as “angry” in your book.
Condemning all churches will no evidence eh? Look at the condition of the world in 2015, that is all the evidence that I need to point to. The so called “church” has failed.
Actually father Carrozza I have declined from this not out of defeat, but as previously stated I was not called to arguing and you seem to enjoy that so much for by saying it looks like defeat to you shows all this is just a game to you and you have to always win……I feel sorry for those you are leading away from Christ! .So you have won the chance to continue in teaching lies to anyone who will listen……..
Julia
No it is not a game to me. I take this quite seriously. But it DOES seem to be a game to you. You are so easily ready to blame the entire Catholic Church for whatever your problem or hurt was and reject the very vessel Jesus gave us for salvation, and you have allowed yourself to be seduced by someone who would convince you to abandon Christ and His sacraments in the Church he created in order to offer you nothing but a target for your anger. If you’re worried about someone leading people away from Christ, the one to worry about is the one who convinced you that the Church Jesus Himself founded is in fact evil. By condemning the Church as evil, this person also implies that Jesus is evil, which of course is false. Therefore, the real charlatan is the one who told you to leave the Catholic Church or who counseled you that it is okay to do so. THAT INDIVIDUAL has led you away from Christ!
I pray that you will come to know Jesus in the fullness of His revelation in the Catholic Church. God bless you my friend.
Steveesq,
Please stop with this emotional plea as your attempt to shame me is not working. Having broken free from the institutional church beast clutches, the trickery and the sorcery commonly used by institutional church beast leadership and their followers to guilt outsiders is no longer effective against me.
See, you hold these characters who dress up in robes and pretend to be holy and pious, in high esteem, I don’t. I simply speak the truth plainly as I am commanded to do by Christ. Mr Corrozza talked about the Roman Catholic faith, I know that Christ established his church however I do not recall Christ establishing a Roman Catholic denomination.
The true church of Christ has nothing to do with any denominational faction, you are making the same mistake in assuming that denominations are a part of the true church, nothing could be further from the truth. Indeed , the gates of hell are not prevailing against the real church, however the decadence of Rome is now begin to reveal itself on a grander scale through this Catholic institution.
The true church consists of genuine believers in Christ, no buildings, no denominations and no so called “leaders” are involved.
Ok. This has gone on long enough. I am respectfully calling a halt to this conversation. I believe everyone has had adequate opportunity to state their point and we are now just moving in circles. Unless there is new information or direction you are bringing to the table please just keep it to yourself. Thank you.
Pmsllllll ll. …it’s good fun reading all this
Talk about handbags at dawn lol
What’s fascinating is that this discussion shows just how imbalanced we seem to be. 136 replies whilst the blog about extending love had 11. Could it be we prefer to philosophise rather than love?
It certainly is easier.
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